Castro's resignation and Cuba's future

D

droid

Guest
Luis Posada Carriles or Orlano Bosch? Miami is full of notorious terrorists living openly.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Luis Posada Carriles or Orlano Bosch? Miami is full of notorious terrorists living openly.

Carriles is the one I was thinking of.

Luis Clemente Faustino Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is a Cuban-born Venezuelan anti-Castro terrorist. A former CIA operative, Posada has been convicted in absentia of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Western hemisphere, including involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed seventy-three people[1][2] and has admitted to his involvement in other terrorist plots including a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots.

In Venezuela, Posada became chief of operations of the Venezuelan intelligence, the DISIP.[17] The role involved countering various guerrilla movements supported by Cuba, but by 1974 he was dismissed after internal differences with Venezuelan authorities. Prior to his dismissal, the CIA had begun to believe that Posada was involved in cocaine trafficking, but did not break formal ties until February 13, 1976. The agency also believe that Posada was involved in a plot to assassinate Henry Kissinger, who at that time was advocating a more cooperative approach to Cuba-United States relations.[16] The Church Committee hearings of 1975, which had been triggered by fears that the CIA were running too many rogue operations, had a significant impact on the agency, and Posada's association was seen to be "not in good odour".

In 1997, Posada was again implicated in a series of terrorist bombings in Cuba intended to deter the growing tourism trade on the island. An Italian, Fabio di Celmo, was killed and 11 people wounded as a result.

In a taped interview with The New York Times, Posada said: "It is sad that someone is dead, but we can't stop."[24] Posada was reportedly disappointed with the reluctance of American news organisations to report the bombing attacks, saying "If there is no publicity, the job is useless.[15] Raúl Ernesto Cruz León, who Posada admitted was a mercenary under his employment, was sentenced to death by the Cuban authorities after admitting to the attacks.[15]

On November 17, 2000, Posada was discovered with 200 pounds of explosives in Panama City and arrested for plotting the assassination of Fidel Castro, who was visiting the country for the first time since 1959. Three other Cuban exiles were also arrested alongside Posada : Gaspar Jiménez who worked at the Cuban American National Foundation in Miami, Pedro Remón Rodríguez and Carlos Muñiz Varela.[15]

Castro himself announced the discovery of the plot on international television, describing Posada as "a cowardly man totally without scruples". Castro also blamed the CANF for orchestrating the plot. Shortly after, Justino di Celmo, the father of an Italian killed by a bomb in Havana, appeared on Cuban television to urge the Panamanian authorities to extradite Posada to Cuba. Posada was subsequently convicted and jailed in Panama for the assassination attempt.[15]

In August 2004, Posada and the three other convicted plotters were pardoned by outgoing Panamanian president Mireya Moscoso. Moscoso, who had been close to the Bush administration in the U.S., denied that she had been pressured by U.S. officials to engineer a release of the men, though the U.S. government declined to condemn the actions of the plotters.[27] Moscoso's decision was heavily criticized by incoming president Martin Torrijos,[28] and speculation was rife that the pardon was politically motivated.

Lovely fella.
 
i also think this is a sad day for cuba

there is a meeting being held at the venezuelan embassy in london on thursday sponsored by the cuban government for the organisation cuban solidarity or something. the venezuelan embassy is just off tottenham ct rd on grafton st/way. something like 6 or 7pm - im sure life post-fidel will be being discussed.
 

vimothy

yurp
i also think this is a sad day for cuba

I cannot possibly imagine how this is a sad day. The man was in power for 49 years. He was the longest serving head of state in the world. He's had a good crack at it, and surely by now has done whatever it is he wanted, 49 years ago.

Castro left office because he knows that terminally ill dictators do not last long. Their followers (the important ones, i.e. the ones who keep them in power) want to ensure that they have access to a steady stream of private goods, and so replace the old dying dear leader with a new, healthier one.

What I want to know is, how can the transition to democracy be made incentive compatible for both the elite and for the people of Cuba? We know that life for dictators is more uncertain than for democrats in their first couple of years in office. Is there a possible way to use this to the advantage of Cuban democracy?
 

vimothy

yurp
This thread reminded me of an old article by John Derbyshire. I found the article and it's pretty germane:

...With the centenary of Lenin’s revolution looming on the far horizon, and after all the horrors of our age—mountains of corpses, oceans of lies—these fools are still with us. Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy. Won’t they ever learn? No, their stupidity is impenetrable. They will never learn.​
 

vimothy

yurp
And check this out, a CNN memo coaching their reporters to balance the fact that there has been criticism of Cuba's human rights record with the fact that Cuba has free health-care and education, as though "free health-care and education" (for whatever it is worth) is relevant or some kind of excuse for human rights abuses, and as though Castro's human rights record is an allegation whereas his magic touch with brilliant public policy and the provision of public goods is fact:

From: Flexner, Allison
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:46 AM
To: *CNN Superdesk (TBS)
Cc: Neill, Morgan; Darlington, Shasta
Subject: Castro guidance

Some points on Castro – for adding to our anchor reads/reporting:

* Please note Fidel did bring social reforms to Cuba – namely free education and universal health care, and racial integration. in addition to being criticized for oppressing human rights and freedom of speech.​
 

vimothy

yurp
:slanted: Er - is that a joke?

Are there hijackers, assassins and bombers living openly in London? If so, are they there with the full knowledge of the British government

Of course there are. Britain is legendary for being a soft touch on mujahideen fleeing reprisals in their own countries. There have even been high profile jihadists calling on their fellows not to attack Britain because it is needed as a base for jihad. And we're not even just talking about not exporting them back to regimes with questionable human rights records (although that does play a part in it). The term "Londonistan" was created by French intelligence services because of the British government's unwillingness to extradite terrorists.

But this is all ear-bleedingly obvious. Are you joking?

do they have well established connections with British Security forces?

No idea.
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
This thread reminded me of an old article by John Derbyshire. I found the article and it's pretty germane:

...With the centenary of Lenin’s revolution looming on the far horizon, and after all the horrors of our age—mountains of corpses, oceans of lies—these fools are still with us. Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy. Won’t they ever learn? No, their stupidity is impenetrable. They will never learn.​

Ha! Brilliantly put....
 
D

droid

Guest
Of course there are. Britain is legendary for being a soft touch on mujahideen fleeing reprisals in their own countries. There have even been high profile jihadists calling on their fellows not to attack Britain because it is needed as a base for jihad. And we're not even just talking about not exporting them back to regimes with questionable human rights records (although that does play a part in it). The term "Londonistan" was created by French intelligence services because of the British government's unwillingness to extradite terrorists.

But this is all ear-bleedingly obvious. Are you joking?

Can you provide some names and some evidence please?

Would you agree that there is a substantive difference between allowing alleged terrorists to reside in your country and encouraging, funding and supporting terror groups as they bomb and terrorize a sovereign nation over a 50 year period? ala Alpha 66 and the likes of Frank Castro, Orlando Bosch, Joaquín Chaffardet, Francisco "Paco" Pimentel, Salvador Romaní Orúe, Ricardo Koesling, Héctor Francisco Alfonso Ruiz, Carlos Muñiz Varela, Luis Posada Carriles, many of whom have openly boasted about their terrorist activities and continue to have strong ties with US intelligence agencies and Florida Republicans.

There may be terrorists in London, but Id be surprised if they enjoy the support and sponsorship of the British Government...
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
Of course there are. Britain is legendary for being a soft touch on mujahideen fleeing reprisals in their own countries. There have even been high profile jihadists calling on their fellows not to attack Britain because it is needed as a base for jihad. And we're not even just talking about not exporting them back to regimes with questionable human rights records (although that does play a part in it). The term "Londonistan" was created by French intelligence services because of the British government's unwillingness to extradite terrorists.

But this is all ear-bleedingly obvious. Are you joking?

Londonistan was a term that originated in the mid-90s, if my memory serves me. From the Guardian 2005:

"Londonistan" no longer rings true
 
D

droid

Guest
Of course, anti-Cuban terrorists aren't the only ones living in Miami - theres also the historical Death Squad connections via Roberto D' Aubuisson:

Major Roberto D'Aubuisson Arrieta (August 23, 1944 – February 20, 1992), a Salvadoran political figure known as Chele (light-skinned man) was a Salvadoran politician and military leader who founded the Nationalist Republican Alliance (ARENA), which he led from 1980 to 1985 and, according to his critics, the leader and main organizer of the infamous “Death Squads” of El Salvador, one of the most dreadful terrorist organizations in the recent history of Latin America, responsible for the torture and killing of thousands of civilians in El Salvador, previous to and during the civil war in that country (1980 - 1992). To his political opponents, D'Aubuisson was also known as "Blowtorch Bob," or simply "The Blowtorch," for his alleged preference in using a blowtorch to torture political prisoners.[1][2]...

...In December 1984 D'Aubuisson visited Washington to attend a dinner held in his honour by a group of US conservative organizations, and to receive an award recognising his "continuing efforts for freedom in the face of communist aggression which is an inspiration to freedom-loving people everywhere." [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_D'Aubuisson

The Nationalist Republican Alliance, better known as ARENA, was
"founded in 1981 by Roberto D' Aubuisson -- a former Army intelligence
officer who was cashiered by the military following the 1979 coup."(6)
According to a 1985 CIA intelligence assessment, "Behind ARENA's
legitimate exterior lies a terrorist network led by D'Aubuisson henchmen
and funded by wealthy Salvadoran expatriates residing in Guatemala and
the United States."(7)
U.S. documents demonstrate that at the time of
its formation, ARENA was first and foremost a paramilitary organization.
Even as it built itself into a modern political party, it never lost its
paramilitary character, even though some of its members, including
President Cristiani, sought to distance themselves from its more violent
tendencies.

In May 1980, at a farmhouse in Santa Tecla, government troops arrested
a group of twenty-four individuals, consisting of wealthy civilians and
active and retired military officers, including Major D'Aubuisson, Major
Roberto Mauricio Staben, Captain Alvaro Saravia, Lt. Rodolfo Lopez
Sibrian, Antonio Cornejo, Ricardo Valdivieso, and others connected to
the far right. According to U.S. documents,

At the time of the arrest, documents were seized, apparently belonging
to D' Aubuisson, which give clear indication of rightist coup plotting,
including a proposal for a new junta...(8)

Among the documents seized was the notebook of Alvaro Saravia, which
included notations indicating the involvement of members of this group
in the murder of Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero and in other
paramilitary activities. Yet despite the evidence against the coup plotters,
they were released within days, and D'Aubuisson fled the country, where
he proceeded to raise money and international support for his political
party the Broad National Front, the predecessor to ARENA.

During this time, D'Aubuisson received tactical and financial support
from wealthy Salvadorans living in exile. According to a State
Department cable from December 1980, one reliable source had indicated
that "a group of four Salvadorans living in Guatemala provided support
for much of the rightist terrorist activity that occurs here." The group
consisted of Roberto D'Aubuisson, Col. Eduardo Iraheta Gonzalez
Suvillaga, Col. Eulalio Santivanez, and Col. Eduardo Melendez.
According to the source, D'Aubuisson "maintains direct contact with
Minister of Defense Garcia," headed the "Maximiliano Hernandez
Martinez Anti-Communist Brigade" and was "responsible for creating
some of the country's leading death squads."(9)

Miami also provided a critical link to death-squad activities. In January
1981 a "highly respected Salvadoran lawyer" informed Ambassador Robert
White and Deputy Chief of Mission Mark Dion "that a group of six
Salvadoran millionaire emigres in Miami have directed and financed
rightwing death squads here for nearly a year
," and that they were
threatening other businesspeople who did not cooperate with their
political plan. According to the source, this group of six "enormously
wealthy former landowners who lost great estates in Phase I of the
agrarian reform" had the following strategy:

To rebuild the country on a new foundation it must first be destroyed
totally, the economy must be wrecked, unemployment must be
massive, the Junta must be ousted and a "good" military officer
brought to power who will carry out a total "limpeza" [sic] (cleansing),
killing three or four or five hundred thousand people, whatever it
takes to get rid of all the communists and their allies.(10)

D'Aubuisson also traveled to South America during this period to seek
support for his activities. A memorandum from the U.S. embassy in
Argentina from January 5, 1981 recounts a conversation with an
Argentine intelligence agent who reported that D'Aubuisson had been in
Buenos Aires, where he received "substantial financial support from
rightist civilians in Argentina."(11)

It was during this period that ARENA was born as a political party, some
say with the support of U.S. advisers in Miami and the U.S. Congress.
Wealthy civilians and members of the military realized that in the new
political climate, marked by U.S. pressure for "free and fair elections," a
party was needed to represent their interests at the political level.(12)

D'Aubuisson returned to El Salvador and helped found ARENA in
September 1981. The new party went on to win the 1982 election for
the Constituent Assembly, to vie unsuccessfully for the presidency in
1984, and finally, to win the presidency in 1989 after a change in
image.(13)

http://www.ciponline.org/dethsqud.txt
 

vimothy

yurp
One easy metric would be to look at the number of terrorists caught in the UK planning operations, or who have stayed in the UK prior to successful operations. Another would be to read one of the many books about Islamic extremism in the UK written in the wake of 7/7. I'm not going to list the different networks or the roll-call of (constantly changing) names and pseudonyms, because they are in the literature and on the front pages of newspapers. London's preeminent role in the transnational salafi networks is far from controversial, and has earned the city the by now familiar title "Londonistan".

I spoke to Mohammed Sifaoui, a French Algerian journalist who, posing as a terrorist sympathiser, managed to infiltrate al-Qaeda cells in both France and the UK.... "The most sought-after terrorists in the world," he says, "have found shelter in the UK . . . They propagate their ideology there. They distribute booklets on their philosophy - giving them out freely outside mosques."​

Formerly the self-styled spokesman for al-Muhajiroun, an Islamic fundamentalist group, he split from the faction over the issue of the "covenant of security", which forbade Muslims living in Britain from engaging in military action within the country....

Anyone who was involved in such attacks would be a "completely and utterly loose cannon", said Butt, who now lives in the Leeds suburb of Beeston. Such "military action" would be unwise because "a bomb in London would be strategically damaging to Muslims here. Immigration is lax in Britain. . . London has more radical Muslims than anywhere in the Muslim world. A bomb would jeopardise everyone's position. There has to be a place we can come."​

"Londonistan" no longer rings true

Well it's getting better, certainly. 7/7 was something of a kick up the arse for the government. A friend's girlfriend does forensic work for the government on Islamist terror networks. She won't talk about it in any detail, but has said that before she started working, she thought the whole thing was a load of guff, but now is a bit more sober about the whole thing.

Would you agree that there is a substantive difference between allowing alleged terrorists to reside in your country and encouraging, funding and supporting terror groups as they bomb and terrorize a sovereign nation over a 50 year period?

I'm not interested in defending the anti-Castro terrorists, just pointing out that lots of governments allow foreign terrorists to reside their country in safety, including democracies, for various reasons, one of which is some terrorists are more palatable to their constituents than others.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Of course, anti-Cuban terrorists aren't the only ones living in Miami - theres also the historical Death Squad connections via Roberto D' Aubuisson:

What does this have to do with Castro's resignation and Cuba's future?
 
D

droid

Guest
I'm not interested in defending the anti-Castro terrorists, just pointing out that lots of governments allow foreign terrorists to reside their country in safety, including democracies, for various reasons, one of which is some terrorists are more unpalatable to their constituents than others.

You're avoiding the question.

Is there a difference between allowing the likes of, '...Butt and Hamza, who have terrorist sympathies.' and 'A Muslim who helped recruit young men to fight for the Taliban...' to remain free in the UK, and funding, supporting and encouraging the acts of paramilitary groups who openly boast of their terrorist activities against a foreign nation?

(Quotes are from your sources)
 

vimothy

yurp
An interesting fact about Cuba that is rarely mentioned is that is the worlds number one victim of international terrorism:

I was quite interested in the figures and the language in the voltairenet report, so I went to their site. "Who is Voltaire Network? Voltaire Network International gathers 8 press agencies, 15 publications and professional journalist unions." Fine, though most seem to be in Latin America. I wonder if there's a Cuban network... oh yes, it's Agencia Cubana de Noticias, the official Cuban state news agency! I type voltaire.net into wikipedia:

The Voltaire Network was especially vocal after the attacks on the World Trade Center of the 11th of September 2001, Meyssan [head of the network] denying the facts as given by the mass media and defending a theory that the whole affair was a plot by US secret services to manipulate the international public opinion to justify US interventions in foreign countries, notably Afghanistan.​

And,

The Voltaire Network frequently publishes grave accusations regarding important events or personalities. Notable instances are:

In a widely mediatised book, 9/11 The Big Lie, Thierry Meyssan, president of the network, claimed that the 11th of September 2001 was due to an internal plot within the US administration. The Network broadcast this declaration widely.

In May 2002, the Network claimed that the coup d'état against president Hugo Chávez had been organised from the White House, citing names of personalities allegedly involved. These claims were used by general procuror of Venezuela Danilo Anderson, and were repeated by Chávez himself. The US Department of State formally denied any involvement.

The Network claims that the "Islamic Army in Iraq", who had taken French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot, had done so in complicity with the US Department.​

You're avoiding the question.

No I'm not. I answered the question, and it was clearly yes, there is a difference, I'm not interested in defending the anti-Castro terrorists....

What does 'Londistan' have to do with it?

And I've already explained that, too. I was,

pointing out that lots of governments allow foreign terrorists to reside their country in safety, including democracies, for various reasons, one of which is some terrorists are more palatable to their constituents than others.​

Which is to say, you seem to have arrived on this thead, not to criticise Castro, but to criticise the US for not trading with Castro (something I find quite amusing) and for terrorising Castro / Cuba (though none of the links attempt to draw such a distinction and I do not think can be trusted to do so anyway). Why? Once again,

Originally Posted by vimothy
What does this have to do with Castro's resignation and Cuba's future?

What does 'Londistan' have to do with it?

You're avoiding the question...
 
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