Fascism!

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I've been watching a lot of Jonathon Meades lately, and in one instalment he says "Societies that tolerate prostitution do not commit genocides", and contrasts the louche-n-sleazy (but, from the rest of the world's POV, harmless) Weimar Republic with the 'morally upright' (ahem!) Nazis that succeeded them.
He also refers to the Teutonic Knights launching "faith based beligerence initiatives", Salisbury Cathedral as "a means to scare superstitious peasants into parting with their money" etc etc

He makes stuff up sometimes, and occasionally seems to veer towards supporting the inherent rightness of capitalism, but I can't help loving his stuff.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"As regards the "outside position" - this may well be right, but this is exactly what I, for one, would deny - there is no "outside" position. Society includes the academy too."
Well they tend not to comment on "the academy" so maybe they are merely commenting on a large subset of society (ie society minus the academy) without realising it. So in one sense they are outside but truly they are not.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
He also refers to the Teutonic Knights launching "faith based beligerence initiatives", Salisbury Cathedral as "a means to scare superstitious peasants into parting with their money" etc etc

He makes stuff up sometimes, and occasionally seems to veer towards supporting the inherent rightness of capitalism, but I can't help loving his stuff.

Haha, yeah, the "faith-based beligerence initiatives" had me creased up big time. :)
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
*chuckle*

"Zizekians"

Hey Poetix, I thought I was the one who was supposed to be like Le Colonel Chabert? You missed a few others.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
What does someone mean when they call themself a "Marxist" (are you trying to say Zizek does this?)

What does someone mean when they call themself a "Christian"?

Christianity obviously failed, since it only exists now in the form of marginal fundamentalism and dead institutions like Catholicism. And in books. It's no longer the preeminent imperialist ideological mode.

Meanwhile "capitalism" seems to be doing just wonderfully. *pfft*
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
This position is tacit as well, I believe, in the minds of many of his academic readers - who believe in a more or less unconscious fashion that the academically educated and philosophically informed should take command...

Nice baseless claim based on your own self-styled ideological pose.

Bravo.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Our departed friend Padraig among them.

What makes you think this?

This is ridiculous and unfair. A person can (and does, I do it, you're doing it now) mention certain ideas that may be discussed by Zizek without being somehow politically committed to anything/everything Zizek has written or any of his political convictions.

I quote Freud all the time, I'm critically engaged with his work, and I've discussed the Oedipal stage briefly several times here, but in terms of my own literal persuasion on this matter I'm very strongly oriented toward what might broadly be called an "anti-Oedipus" psychoanalytical/political/intellectual strategy.

Anyway, I would've thought you'd be too intelligent to accuse people whom I'm quite sure you don't know well personally, whose writing or work you are unfamiliar with, and whose political commitments (which, in Padraig's case, I know for a fact, bear no resemblance to Zizek's) are clearly a mystery to you-- though you fantasize otherwise--of being an -ian.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Haha, not a new idea by any means, this - didn't Plato, in his 'Republic', write about idealised future states that would be ruled by 'philosopher-kings'? And to think that this idea was thought up by a philosopher, of all people! ;)

Funny that capital holders were the ones who suggested that the government should be elected by "the people" in token displays of democracy but run by a central group of corporate lobbies whose financial power could buy political clout and influence that was so vastly powerful that it couldn't be successfully counterbalanced by the interest of the many.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
What makes you think this?

This is ridiculous and unfair. A person can (and does, I do it, you're doing it now) mention certain ideas that may be discussed by Zizek without being somehow politically committed to anything/everything Zizek has written or any of his political convictions.

I quote Freud all the time, I'm critically engaged with his work, and I've discussed the Oedipal stage briefly several times here, but in terms of my own literal persuasion on this matter I'm very strongly oriented toward what might broadly be called an "anti-Oedipus" psychoanalytical/political/intellectual strategy.

Anyway, I would've thought you'd be too intelligent to accuse people whom I'm quite sure you don't know well personally, whose writing or work you are unfamiliar with, and whose political commitments (which, in Padraig's case, I know for a fact, bear no resemblance to Zizek's) are clearly a mystery to you-- though you fantasize otherwise--of being an -ian.

I'm not sure I recognize my positions in your surmise of them.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
A further point, which has already been noted in this thread - if Zizek is indeed a fascist, he is a strange kind of fascist, since there is very little in his thought which could conceivably lead to the formation of fascist militias. His influence - the organizational component carried by his thought - clearly appears to be working in other ways - that is, within (broadly, academic) milieus somewhat other to those of the street and the masses.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
The Jewcy piece is very good - but it does sort of pass over certain elements of Zizek which are a bit darker and/or madder. It supplies the image of a kind of "decaffeinated" Zizek (to borrow one of Zizek's own concepts) which passes over some of his more disturbing statements...
 

vimothy

yurp
Indeed, it's a very sane piece of writing, which to be honest came as something of a shock. It made me think, perhaps Zizek has written so much that what I've read (and seen) is in no way representative. I also can't square what is says in Jewcy with what I read from other 'Zizekians'.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Incidentally - and perhaps slightly off topic - for more information on some of these general themes, I cannot recommend Regis Debray's book "Media Manifestos" highly enough. Debray has in particular some brilliant pages on Marxism, and on the problem of transmission that it occludes. He says:

"It comes down to the fact that this giant of human thought who thought about neither mediation (the Party), nor mediators (party cadres) nor milieus (like that of the intelligentsia), nor the means (of distribution), was the least political of theoreticians. The author of Capital would not have been able, I think, to adequately explain to himself the poewr that this mobilizing -ism would one day exert over hundreds of millions of men, nor the formidable dynamism that it was to install at its peak in underdeveloped and pre-capitalist countries. The hybrid of idea and motor [l'ideomoteur] becomes an enigma from the moment ideology is made into a shadow game."

He then adds, in a characteristically wry aside:

"Does not a slogan such as "religion is the opiate of the people" reveal two regrettable instances of ignorance - of opiate addicts first, of soldier-monks beyond that? Had Marx traveled a bit further, he would have known that the person who gives himself or herself to opium lays down the weapons or tools and stretched out, and tone and energy levels drop. The person given over, by contrast, body and soul to God intends tall too well to make others profit from Him too. As a general rule, religious faith is tonic; the opium poppy a sedative. The Knights Templar of long ago, and today the hezbollahs or Muslim brethren, do not bear a very close resemblance to emaciated hookah-addicts in Chinese drug dens."

MM, p.94
 

vimothy

yurp
The hybrid of idea and motor [l'ideomoteur] becomes an enigma from the moment ideology is made into a shadow game.

By way of weird synchronicity, I have been meaning to mention a really good new book I'm reading. It's by Donald McKenzie, a sociologist of science and scientific knowledge and should appeal to lots of people here (IMO). The book is called An Engine, Not a Camera, after Friedman's famous description of economic theory as an engine of analysis, rather than a purely descriptive camera. McKenzie takes the analogy further and shows how financial theory (if maybe not all economic theory per se -- Friedman himself was rather skeptical of the validity of finance as a scholarly discipline) is also an engine of production that shapes financial markets (cf. Black-Scholes-Merton option pricing theory). Anyway, it strikes me that there are some interesting parallels there with Marxism as a 'performative' theory, although I guess in general with Marxism the two-way nature of the relationship is more overt and explicit.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
"Does not a slogan such as "religion is the opiate of the people" reveal two regrettable instances of ignorance - of opiate addicts first, of soldier-monks beyond that? Had Marx traveled a bit further, he would have known that the person who gives himself or herself to opium lays down the weapons or tools and stretched out, and tone and energy levels drop. The person given over, by contrast, body and soul to God intends tall too well to make others profit from Him too. As a general rule, religious faith is tonic; the opium poppy a sedative. The Knights Templar of long ago, and today the hezbollahs or Muslim brethren, do not bear a very close resemblance to emaciated hookah-addicts in Chinese drug dens."

Perhaps this is better understood in Marx's milieu, 19th century Europe, where religion (i.e. Christianity) was widely felt to be a declining political power and was increasingly irrelevant to the continent's intellectual life although it still held considerable sway over the psychology of the common mass of people. I.e. people still went to church, but the great schismatic wars of the 16th and 17th centuries (and the Crusades, Inquisition, witch-hunts...) were by Marx's time part of the reasonably distant past.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Incidentally - and perhaps slightly off topic - for more information on some of these general themes, I cannot recommend Regis Debray's book "Media Manifestos" highly enough. Debray has in particular some brilliant pages on Marxism, and on the problem of transmission that it occludes. He says:

"It comes down to the fact that this giant of human thought who thought about neither mediation (the Party), nor mediators (party cadres) nor milieus (like that of the intelligentsia), nor the means (of distribution), was the least political of theoreticians. The author of Capital would not have been able, I think, to adequately explain to himself the poewr that this mobilizing -ism would one day exert over hundreds of millions of men, nor the formidable dynamism that it was to install at its peak in underdeveloped and pre-capitalist countries. The hybrid of idea and motor [l'ideomoteur] becomes an enigma from the moment ideology is made into a shadow game."

He then adds, in a characteristically wry aside:

"Does not a slogan such as "religion is the opiate of the people" reveal two regrettable instances of ignorance - of opiate addicts first, of soldier-monks beyond that? Had Marx traveled a bit further, he would have known that the person who gives himself or herself to opium lays down the weapons or tools and stretched out, and tone and energy levels drop. The person given over, by contrast, body and soul to God intends tall too well to make others profit from Him too. As a general rule, religious faith is tonic; the opium poppy a sedative. The Knights Templar of long ago, and today the hezbollahs or Muslim brethren, do not bear a very close resemblance to emaciated hookah-addicts in Chinese drug dens."

MM, p.94

I think Marx knew exactly what he was saying when he called religion the opiate of
the masses.

What do you mean by "tonic"?

Opiates are opiates, and can have sedative properties, but they are not sedatives in real pharmaceutical terms. I can assure you that over time, any "sedative" effects of opiates lessen, while the physical dependence remains. I think Marx's is a very apt metaphor...at the time Marx was writing, people went to get their dose of token Christianity a few times per week, got their "worship" fix, and the "us and them" belief system espoused by church goers effectively elided the political significance of ethical acts in favor of ethical acts performed for the reward of an afterlife. For the religious believer of the time, and in particular Christians, the ills of the world are ineluctible. The belief that the world is evil, is basically a domain where the devil runs rampant, and that the faithful will be rewarded later more or less lets th believer off the hook in terms of political responsibility and motivation. The only thing a Christian of the time needs to do is go to church, believe in as orthodox a manner as possible, and their reward will be eternal in heaven. Jesus was very clear on this--the poor are always with us, and Cesar is always going to be Cesar.

Religious belief at the time did not much resemble the mysticism or radical imperialist sort of the Roman conquerors or the Crusades, nor did it resemble contemporary fundamentalism where believers are politically mobilized. Sure, there was a strong religious establishment, but it didn't amount to much more than a residual cultural tradition in terms of praxis. As the political foundations of Christianity slowly corroded and mutated after its empire fell, Christianity became both a bourgeois convention and the ideological means by which the underclass was kept under wraps (the poor would be rich in the afterlife, if they believed hard enough)...

The primary characteristic of a heroin addict (that is relevant here) is that they reach a point where they can no longer get high anymore but are still entirely unable to function without the drug--the addict no longer feels the pleasureable effects of heroin but nevertheless is compelled to continue using it based on both the need to avoid the hideous withdrawal syndrome/symptoms that comprise physical dependence AND, perhaps even more importantly, because the ritual aspects of the use, the obsessive-compulsive behavioral elements of drug abuse that comprise psychological dependence, the incidental behaviors (e.g. needle use--I know people who will inject hot water simply because the compulsion to continue the injection ritual, even in the absense of heroin, is so psychologically compelling) the user has habituated are the mechanism by which the physical addiction is reinforced. It's often said, by a heroin addict in recovery, that withdrawal was hard but learning how to live without the drug after withdrawal is even harder. (Kind of like when a smoker says "what am I going to do with my hands if I quit smoking?" for the opiate addict the question is "what am I going to do with all those hours I was devoting to morbid seek orientation and acquiring and using drugs?")

The parallel Marx is making is between these characteristics of opiate addiction and the sort of cultural compulsion people felt to continue praticing Christianity after it was well past its due date in terms of worldwide dominance and political influence. Christianity, which once was a very powerful and effective belief system, became an empty ritual performed because, well, people have been doing it for so long. Christians of the time were like heroin addicts--in the absence of any real pleasure (any spiritual committment to Christianity), Christians were compelled to "inject hot water", to continue going to church because that's what their parents did, that's what they'd done their entire lives, that's what they did on Sunday.

Looks like Mr. Tea said the same thing more concisely. x-post.
 
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