padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
tbc I'm not suggesting the clumsiness and lameness of BDS should stop people from advocating boycott and divestment, if that's what they think is right
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I do think there's a unique responsibility with anything related to Jews, to demarcate yourself from anti-Semitism clearly and continuously

it's unique not because Jews are inherently more deserving, but for specific historical reasons as stated ad nauseam in this thread and elsewhere

if you don't, anti-Semitism will inevitably creep in even if it wasn't there to begin with; it always does
 

luka

Well-known member
I wasn't talking about BDS specifically everything I know about them comes from a particularly fractious Facebook debate I witnessed, strong opinions on both sides...

Just as a more general point about activist groups. Sometimes it feels like people will withhold their support from any group falling short of sainthood regardless of the justice of the cause and the necessity of acting. It's quite difficult cos these are structural, oppositional roles that must be filled. Someone has to do this work. And... I don't, I leave it to others....
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I think the discussion has been pretty well mannered, yes, in response to Sufi's post. I guess that's 'cos Dissensus is a bit siloed, and a lot of us know each other or at least our respective positions. It's hard to have a discussion on the wider internet about anti-semitism in Labour that doesn't automatically tend towards polarisation and abuse and this will continue and worsen as the election goes on. Primary colours only for the next 5 weeks. And its a complex phenomena with a lot of moving parts. It feels to me the debate as it's constituted in the wider media is very much a product of the social media environment and all the bad that involves - lots of bruised emotions and a general stiffening and defence of positions rather than good faith engagement with the other sides. Labour Party management and their political enemies all feed into this of course and push and promote these positions.
 
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subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
It feels to me the debate as it's constituted in the wider media is very much a product of the social media environment and all the bad that involves - lots of bruised emotions and a general stiffening and defence of positions rather than good faith engagement with the other sides. Labour Party management and their political enemies all feed into this of course and push and promote these positions.

I think there are only "other sides" to a single aspect of this issue. Anti-semitism we all oppose. The problem of anti-semitism within the Labour Party we're trying to address. So the only argument really is in how big a problem it is.

What we reject are the notions that: (1) the Labour Party is riddled with anti-semitism; (2) the Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic; and (3) the leader of the Labour Party is himself anti-semitic. From our perspective there is no good faith engagement with any of these positions.

So, yes, when they're used to attack us we get defensive and angry, and our natural reaction is to question why they're being propagated, by whom and to what end. It's hardly to the benefit of either the Labour Party or the Jewish community. I think we're probably all being played here.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
What we reject are the notions that: (1) the Labour Party is riddled with anti-semitism; (2) the Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic; and (3) the leader of the Labour Party is himself anti-semitic. From our perspective there is no good faith engagement with any of these positions.

So, yes, when they're used to attack us we get defensive and angry, and our natural reaction is to question why they're being propagated, by whom and to what end. It's hardly to the benefit of either the Labour Party or the Jewish community. I think we're probably all being played here.

As I observe it, when these positions are presented in response to someone making an allegation of anti-semitisim, it's often heard as a denial or dismissal of their claims. The claimant will then feel angry/aggrieved/unheard, double down on their position and so the cycle continues. This isn't helped by the fact that a lot of these discussions take place on social media, which breeds adversarial communication. I pretty much agree and understand your last paragraph. Don't know if I see a way to square this circle.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
who is sometimes less careful than he should be when pursuing the causes he supports, and is not nearly critical enough of people who he believes are on the side of the poor and oppressed
that seems like a totally fair description of Corbyn, both generally and specifically in relation to anti-Semitism
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
and sure, the Tories (or Republicans, or whatever lame right-wing party in whatever country) are undoubtedly worse on racism, harbor more actual racists, etc: sure

I'd still never vote for Corbyn, if I was British
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
and sure, the Tories (or Republicans, or whatever lame right-wing party in whatever country) are undoubtedly worse on racism, harbor more actual racists, etc: sure

Regarding which, I just noticed this new piece by Jon Lansman in the Jewish Chronicle:

Focusing only on Labour whitewashes the antisemitism and racism that infects the Conservative Party from top to bottom and problems within the Lib Dems too. The reality is that these prejudices are pervasive in our society, so of course no political party is immune from them. But other parties have taken no steps to confront this within their ranks. The Conservatives refused to sack Scruton when his comments first came to light, keeping him in post for five more months, and they continue to stand by their alliance with Orban.

Whereas Labour have acted to tackle antisemitism, from doubling resources and Jeremy’s processes for rapid expulsions, to an education programme for members on antisemitism. There is more to do and Labour’s procedures have been revolutionised for that very purpose. They are more robust and more independent than any other party’s procedures and the leadership is determined that those new and improved procedures be used to root this out.

I know that a Labour government will do everything necessary to protect Jewish communities, to ensure our safety and wellbeing, and to continue to tackle antisemitism in our party and across society.

But if we want to eliminate racism and other forms of hatred in our politics, we would do better by working together to educate where we can and exclude where we can’t rather than exploiting racism for competitive advantage.


https://www.thejc.com/comment/comme...semitism-and-racism-of-other-parties-1.493397
 

version

Well-known member
'Poison' of anti-Semitism has taken root in UK's Labour - Chief Rabbi

LONDON (Reuters) - The poison of anti-Semitism “sanctioned from the top” has taken root in Britain’s opposition Labour Party, Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said in an article published on Monday, warning the “soul of our nation is at stake” in next month’s election.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, a veteran campaigner for Palestinian rights, has been dogged by criticism from members, lawmakers and Jewish leaders that he has failed to tackle anti-Semitism in the party despite a promise to do so.

“The question I am now most frequently asked is: What will become of Jews and Judaism in Britain if the Labour Party forms the next government? This anxiety is justified,” Mirvis, Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth, wrote in an article for Tuesday’s edition of the Times newspaper. He said the response of the party’s leadership as their supporters drove lawmakers, members and staff out of the party for challenging anti-Jewish racism had been “utterly inadequate” and claims the party was doing everything it could and had investigated every case were “mendacious fiction”.

“It is a failure to see this as a human problem rather than a political one. It is a failure of culture. It is a failure of leadership. A new poison – sanctioned from the top – has taken root in the Labour Party,” he wrote.

A spokesman for Labour, who are trailing Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s Conservatives in the polls ahead of the Dec. 12 election, said Corbyn was a lifelong campaigner against anti-Semitism.

“A Labour government will guarantee the security of the Jewish community, defend and support the Jewish way of life, and combat rising anti-Semitism in our country and across Europe,” the spokesman said.

“We are taking robust action to root out anti-Semitism in the party, with swift suspensions, processes for rapid expulsions and an education programme for members,” he said.

Mirvis said that, while convention dictates that the chief rabbi stays away from party politics, challenging racism went beyond politics.

“How complicit in prejudice would a leader of Her Majesty’s opposition have to be to be considered unfit for office? Would associations with those who have incited hatred against Jews be enough? Would describing as ‘friends’ those who endorse the murder of Jews be enough? It seems not,” he said.

“When December 12 arrives, I ask every person to vote with their conscience. Be in no doubt, the very soul of our nation is at stake.”

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-root-in-uks-labour-chief-rabbi-idUKKBN1XZ2M5
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I had barely left my flat yesterday when I started hearing voices. The specific voice I was hearing was that of Malcolm X. This was not, it turned out, the later more reflective Malcolm X. It was a younger Malcolm X, talking about Jews.

The voice was emanating from a large male figure who was walking down my street. As I got closer to him I was able to see that he was playing a recording on a portable stereo. The man turned as I overtook him and we stared at each other briefly. I’m pretty sure he picked up on my general air of being pissed off with him. He looked pretty aggressive. I doubt that he wanted a debate about Brother Malcolm with a white devil in a suit.

I also doubt that he had any time for the Labour Party. Neither of us said anything. He stayed on the pavement as Orthodox Jews walked past and prepared breakfast in their homes. I went to work.
 

version

Well-known member
There was apparently some incident on the Underground the other day where a Muslim woman ended up stepping in to defend a Jewish family who were being harassed.

 

john eden

male pale and stale
There’s an uptick in Black Nationalism in London it seems.

A group of them were preaching outside Stamford Hill Sainsbury’s the other weekend. The cops broke it up when they were being anti-Semitic.
 
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