Syria

DannyL

Wild Horses
Well, I don't think Russia is a fascist state but it certainly weaponises and exacerbates far right sentiment to destablise the West. Assad's Syria does deserve the epithet though.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
The complete militarisation of the state and the ethnic/sectarian nature of the conflict (Shia/Alawite vs Sunni). The way power is being exercised also - absolute power and total violence with no pretense of anything like consent (this is why surrender has never been an option for rebel forces). I don't know if it fits classical definitions of fascism - myths of national renewal and expansion directed externally - it's historically unique. as far as I can tell. Also, completely dependent on external support so that's another factor.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't know if it fits classical definitions of fascism - myths of national renewal and expansion directed externally - it's historically unique. as far as I can tell.

Well if Assadism is a late and particularly degenerate form of Ba'athism, recall that 'Ba'ath' is literally Arabic for 'rebirth'. It was all about cultural renewal - Arabic cultural renewal, of course, as the Iraqi Kurds soon found - and was consciously modeled on European fascism/national socialism and, to a lesser extent, Soviet communism. Saddam in particular idolised both Hitler and Stalin.

Perhaps some in the West saw the Assads as the more 'civilised' face of the movement because they wore smart suits instead of fatigues and berets, but that mask has now slipped for all but the most grotesquely star-struck.

TBH if what's happening in Syria isn't fascism then I have to wonder just what the fuck *is* fascism.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Neo-fascist might technically be more useful, but words do often depart from their original meanings to become more widely used...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Neo-fascist might technically be more useful, but words do often depart from their original meanings to become more widely used...

Well yeah, I mean strictly speaking Nazis per se haven't existed since 1945 because the NSDAP was disbanded then and has been universally prohibited from being refounded ever since. But clearly there are still people whose ideology is very close to that of the original Nazis and some of them even call themselves that name, so the distinction between Nazi and neo-Nazi, or between Fascist and neo-Fascist, is kind of academic (i.e. useful if you *are* an academic, and are talking specifically about the movements/parties/regimes that existed in Europe up to and during WWII, but otherwise less so).
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
It prevents the same discussions over and over about what we mean by 'fascist'. A compromise of sorts so that the debate can move on to more substantial points than semantics. I have no problem calling Assad a fascist, but some people do (eg Craner), and their reasoning is not crazy.

I don't think there's a direct comparison here with the term Nazi, given that neo-Nazis almost always (?) directly appeal to Hitler and symbols associated with the Third Reich. Hence people have less of a problem with calling those people 'Nazis'.
 
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luka

Well-known member
craner has been particular about the use of the word ever since he read a book
purporting to offer a precise definition. he was very impressed by it and it became
part of his mental furniture.

(a mental furniture thread might be good)
 

luka

Well-known member
obviously baboon ive been watvhing with interest as you add all sorts of therapeautic
concepts and terminolgy into your brain interior!
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Which ones are you thinking of?!

Yeah, a mental furniture/unconscious dogma thread might be good - difficult for any of us to be objective about it though
 

luka

Well-known member
well by definition you cant talk about unconscious dogma. i mean the conceptual framework. the formative influences and ideas.
 

vimothy

yurp
same with fascist and neofascist. the issue is that these terms strongly resonate with the liberal imagination and so have a rhetorical weight that can be very useful, for good or (more often) ill
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
fascism refers to a specific stage in the 20th century workers movement. but ultimately fascists won (and i don't mean in the democratic sense, I mean in that their economic policies were applied, as well as many continuing to serve in governments around the world or being recuperated by the state.)

The butcher Assad may not be a fascist but he has no problem relying on red brown types and sham anti-imperialists, and his father certainly has done since the 80s.

Looks like there is going to be genocide in Idlib. from reading turkish foreign policy they are going to try kicking the containment can down the road so that they can still have a seat at the table of the ustana piece process.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
fascism refers to a specific stage in the 20th century workers movement. but ultimately fascists won (and i don't mean in the democratic sense, I mean in that their economic policies were applied...)

I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on economics when it comes to defining fascism, though. You could even say that 'fascist economics' is an oxymoron, because in economic terms, there are right-wing and left-wing fascists just as there are right-wing and left-wing liberals.

(And if the concept of a 'left-wing fascist' makes anyone here choke on their lemonade, consider that it seems a pretty reasonable description of Ersnt Rohm and the Strasserite wing of the Nazi party, or the so-called 'National Bolshevik' party that existed until recently in Russia. And the Italian Fascist state had a pragmatic mix of traditionally left- and right-wing economic policies.)
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on economics when it comes to defining fascism, though. You could even say that 'fascist economics' is an oxymoron, because in economic terms, there are right-wing and left-wing fascists just as there are right-wing and left-wing liberals. And the Italian Fascist state had a pragmatic mix of traditionally left- and right-wing economic policies.

(And if the concept of a 'left-wing fascist' makes anyone here choke on their lemonade, consider that it seems a pretty reasonable description of Ersnt Rohm and the Strasserite wing of the Nazi party, or the so-called 'National Bolshevik' party that existed until recently in Russia.)

Well, I only say this insofar as the political tradition that I subscribe to is to the left of the left. So actually I would agree with you on left wing fash.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
fascism was not a break with the capital--wage labour relation.

Yes, there was a conservative revolutionary element to it, through palingenesis. which explains why so many anti-american leftists are now knee deep in red brown coalition.
 
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