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Thread: Nick Land and Neocameralism

  1. #151
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    Yes, well, I'll double down on that then. despite hoping you'll grow out of some of your sillier/willfully provocative positions, I can't help thinking you are an actual human being, intelligent in some respects,self aware, often witty and with a sense of proportion and decency that stops you from taking your professed politics too seriously.

    Or, to use a more traditional formulation
    I'd go for a pint with you. I wouldnt go for a pint with josef.

  2. #152

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    Wow, it gets better/worse. No idea how to respond to kindness other than to slink off in shame. You win this time!

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  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    OK, well I went out of my way to point out that that's not what I was saying, but I should have known it would be wasted.
    Tea, has it occurred to you that this wasn't aimed at you at all?

    They attacked Daniel Miller/Josef K. Do you think he's either a "fascist" or a "Nazi", though? Is he even an "ally" of fascism because he questioned the shutting down of a gallery by a load of furious people who didn't really know anything about the exhibition it had hosted? It's a shame he's buggered off again because I'd be interested to hear his response to being labelled a Nazi - but perhaps his stay was so short because he knew that was exactly the response he'd get from some quarters.
    No, I think he is deeply misguided, and I even have some perverse admiration of his willingness to defend his ideas, but on the other hand, from what I know of the gallery it was dodgy as fuck and I can understand why hed be met with hostility (and the reactions in those videos are fairly mild TBH) by anti fascists.

    And if you want to talk about history, you must surely be aware of some of the things that been done in the name of anti-fascism, such as the atrocities committed by the Soviets in eastern Europe during and after WWII - many of them committed against civilians who'd already been brutalized by the Nazis themselves. Today a similar position is being taken by Assad and his Russian and Iranian backers in their war against "ISIS". (I'll save you the bother of pointing out that the USA has an extensive record of doing much the same in the name of "anti-communism", of course.)
    Wow. What a bizarre conflation of tenuously related events. Not even going to bother dissembling them TBH.

    An insistence on seeing the world in absolute bipolar monochrome, "you're either with us or against is", is common to extremists of all stripes. You're doing it yourself, right now.
    Er no, no Im not, but Id welcome any quotes you can provide to suggest otherwise.

  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    To put it even more bluntly: do you agree with ripping people's tongues out because you disagree with what they have to say, even if what they have to say is unequivocally fascist? (Which, I hope we can agree, josef k is not.)
    There are arseholes everywhere, and clearly that is extreme and unfair.

    However to use your example of the unequivocal fascist - how should the Caribbean immigrant react to a neo-nazi actively agitating for their extermination? How should the Jew react to entreaties to 'get in the oven' from white supremacists? Hitler was right about one thing. Fascism must be strangled in its cradle for the sake of us all because, in political terms it is a unique evil in that it's political program is based explicitly and unapologetically on genocide.

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  7. #155
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  8. #156
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    I'm confused about why some random on the internet who said that fascists should have their tongues cut out is being condemned by Mr Tea but not Brett Stevens, who inspired Breivik and then went on to praise him after he had killed 77 people.

    Stevens was an invited guest speaker at LD50. Understandably some people were not happy about that.

    The idea that some words on the internet and a bit of pushing and shoving outside a gallery is somehow symmetrical to the rise in alt-right lone wolf terrorism is liberalism at its most bleakly comical.

  9. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Tea, has it occurred to you that this wasn't aimed at you at all?
    Well hang on, you didn't really go out of your way to make it clear that it wasn't aimed at me, it's just the kind of thing you say to me all the time and the only other person who'd replied between my post and yours was luka, and it clearly wasn't aimed at him - but if it genuinely wasn't aimed at me either then fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    No, I think he is deeply misguided, and I even have some perverse admiration of his willingness to defend his ideas, but on the other hand, from what I know of the gallery it was dodgy as fuck and I can understand why hed be met with hostility (and the reactions in those videos are fairly mild TBH) by anti fascists.

    Wow. What a bizarre conflation of tenuously related events. Not even going to bother dissembling them TBH.
    My point was that it's possible to go from an entirely justified position: "Fascists are the scum of the earth and it's the duty of all good people to oppose them" - to a not-so-justified position: "Arbitrarily severe violence is always justified against arbitrarily minor instances of fascism" (an exhibition in an obscure gallery most people have never heard of, as unpleasant as the exhibits may be, does not equal invading Poland) or "The target of anyone who claims to be fighting fascism is by definition a fascist" (hence the example of Soviet brutality against German and other civilians in WWII, or Russian and Syrian state violence against Syrian civilians happening right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Er no, no Im not, but Id welcome any quotes you can provide to suggest otherwise.
    I was talking about a rather extreme and graphic threat made specifically against josef k on the grounds that he is allegedly a "fascist" or a "Nazi". You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Antifa do not simply attack or confront anyone who they 'ideologically oppose' ... Antifa target fascists and nazis
    They certainly confronted josef k, which means you've convicted him in absentia of being a fascist, haven't you? That's what I mean by bipolar morality.

    To be honest I have a hard time believing you're actually naive enough to think that no self-proclaimed anti-fascist has ever threatened or insulted anyone who is not, when all's said and done, a fascist (any more than you'd believe that no-one who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Jew-hater has ever been accused of anti-Semitism). You even backtracked a bit on this with your concession that "there are arseholes everywhere", but wouldn't it be more realistic and humane to go a bit further and admit that a culture in which an accusation of being a "racist", "fascist" or "Nazi" is considered as good as a conviction, and therefore justification for any level of abuse and intimidation, might be problematic and perhaps very often counter-productive?
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 18-04-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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  10. #158
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    Well you've hit on the problem with all team sports, like ice hockey, volleyball and politics, you have to work with people you personally despise if you want to win anything.

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    Fucks sake Tea, is it possible for you to imagine that a conversation of which you happen to be part of isnt actually all about you? Is it possible I was reacting to Vimothy and the guy from this very board who actually stood outside a right wing art gallery with a placard?

    You get personally invested in these things, smear your ignorance all over the board and then massively overreach, leaving yourself open to all kinds of justifiable attacks and then, rather than take your medicine you screech around for a bit until everyone gets too sick of it to continue. This is followed by the nursing of imaginary wounds to your pride only for them to be ripped open again the next time you see an opportunity for revenge via pedantic nitpicking, furious misreading and logical fallacy. This is not a productive or healthy pattern.

    *Dammit, I see you've edited the bit about me seeing myself as being one of 'the good people', which I have to say was fantastically hilarious.

  12. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    I'm confused about why some random on the internet who said that fascists should have their tongues cut out is being condemned by Mr Tea but not Brett Stevens, who inspired Breivik and then went on to praise him after he had killed 77 people.
    Someone on the internet said that a particular person, who is or used to be a contributor to this forum, should have his tongue cut out, as punishment for questioning the use of mob tactics to shut down a gallery.

    And please, do I really have to point out that an obvious neo-Nazi is a bad person in order to avoid implications that I'm somehow sympathetic? Bit of a dick move there John, no? For the record, NAZIS ARE BAD. Thanks for listening.
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  13. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Someone on the internet said that a particular person, who is or used to be a contributor to this forum, should have his tongue cut out, as punishment for questioning the use of mob tactics to shut down a gallery.

    And please, do I really have to point out that an obvious neo-Nazi is a bad person in order to avoid implications that I'm somehow sympathetic? Bit of a dick move there John, no? For the record, NAZIS ARE BAD. Thanks for listening.
    My point is that he still has his tongue, whereas the victims of Breivik are still very much dead.

    You may have noticed that there is a toxic internet culture in which threats are tossed about willy nilly every second. I am not especially happy about it, not least because it seems overwhelmingly biased against the traditional victims of fascism - women, gay people, and non-whites.

    Once again you have leapt on and fixated on this one unrepresentative thing (as you did with the Morning Star in the "what do the right get right" thread) to the exclusion of everything else. Antifa and any attempts to oppose fascism is bad because one anonymous person (who for all we know isn't even an anti-fascist) said something bad on the internet.

    In other news, I am still alive despite being threatened by some actual Nazis some years ago. Some of the people I know in that video are still around despite being involved with proper physical confrontations with Nazis.

    LD50 is gone, and most people apart from you think that Josef K is a dick. At the end of the day he has lost a bit of a cardboard with some writing on it and not been able to give a talk about Evola. Call me Stalin, but I think that is a price worth paying for not having Nazis congregating in my community.

  14. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    My point is that he still has his tongue, whereas the victims of Breivik are still very much dead.
    Yes, clearly that's true - but no-one here is supporting Breivik, or supporting this other guy who supports Breivik, or saying "anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists".

    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    You may have noticed that there is a toxic internet culture in which threats are tossed about willy nilly every second. I am not especially happy about it, not least because it seems overwhelmingly biased against the traditional victims of fascism - women, gay people, and non-whites.
    Again, yes, this is obviously true. Equally obviously, people who live for the thrill of making kneejerk accusations of racism and fascism are making the problem worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    Antifa and any attempts to oppose fascism is bad...
    Oh come on, who's generalizing now? Where did I ever say opposing fascism is bad? Again, if I have to state the bleeding fucking obvious, any action that's likely to reduce the sum total of fascism in the world is a good thing and to be applauded. And I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about actions that, however good they may feel to the person making them at the time, may be having an effect opposite to the one intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    ...because one anonymous person (who for all we know isn't even an anti-fascist) said something bad on the internet.
    If you're advocating cutting tongues out of a certain sort of person, I think it's fair to say you are "anti" that sort of person.

    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    .In other news, I am still alive despite being threatened by some actual Nazis some years ago. Some of the people I know in that video are still around despite being involved with proper physical confrontations with Nazis.

    LD50 is gone, and most people apart from you think that Josef K is a dick. At the end of the day he has lost a bit of a cardboard with some writing on it and not been able to give a talk about Evola. Call me Stalin, but I think that is a price worth paying for not having Nazis congregating in my community.
    Physical confrontations with actual Nazis are totally fine by me, and I never said otherwise. It was fine in 1939 and it's fine now.

    I have no personal friendship with josef k, and it may well be the case that he is a dick. I would like to think not, because I had some interesting conversations with him on here years ago, but then it's possible to have interesting things to say and still personally be a dick, just as it's possible to be dull and pleasant. I'm glad no-one got stabbed or had their tongue cut out, and I'm sure he'll recover from the trauma of being de-placarded and called some nasty things. It may even be the case that the stuff on show in LD50 was so unequivocally fascistic (I haven't seen any of it myself, of course - in common with everyone else here, I think?) that the only possible response from a decent person would've been to call for it to be cancelled. Maybe that was the whole point right from the start. Does that make josef k a "fascist" for disagreeing with the way this was done and objecting to the way he was subsequently treated? The possible negative consequences of this kind of behaviour are not that placards get nicked or talks cancelled, but that people who are not actually fascists may end up being forced into a default position that looks like apology or sympathy for real fascists by activists whose tactics of first resort are to clamour for events to be shut down and then enforce those demands by making threats.
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  15. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    If you're advocating cutting tongues out of a certain sort of person, I think it's fair to say you are "anti" that sort of person.
    Well no, because it's an established tactic of the alt-right (and the state, if you want to get into it) to discredit the left with wildly over the top provocations. Hence:

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephberns...vGg#.cx12YB0nd

    In addition to that, there are a lot of very bored alienated people sitting around on the net who like to make threats which never come to fruition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Physical confrontations with actual Nazis are totally fine by me, and I never said otherwise. It was fine in 1939 and it's fine now.
    OK good, but you do accept that it is not possible to do this without there being some mess sometimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I have no personal friendship with josef k, and it may well be the case that he is a dick. I would like to think not, because I had some interesting conversations with him on here years ago, but then it's possible to have interesting things to say and still personally be a dick, just as it's possible to be dull and pleasant. I'm glad no-one got stabbed or had their tongue cut out, and I'm sure he'll recover from the trauma of being de-placarded and called some nasty things. It may even be the case that the stuff on show in LD50 was so unequivocally fascistic (I haven't seen any of it myself, of course - in common with everyone else here, I think?) that the only possible response from a decent person would've been to call for it to be cancelled. Maybe that was the whole point right from the start. Does that make josef k a "fascist" for disagreeing with the way this was done and objecting to the way he was subsequently treated? The possible negative consequences of this kind of behaviour are not that placards get nicked or talks cancelled, but that people who are not actually fascists may end up being forced into a default position that looks like apology or sympathy for real fascists by activists whose tactics of first resort are to clamour for events to be shut down and then enforce those demands by making threats.
    1. Nobody was ever going to get "stabbed or have their tongue cut out". FFS.

    2. I have posted one of the LD50 exhibits upthread which is a Hitler quote next to Taylor Swift alongside the "3 7s" swastika variant that was used by the AWB in South Africa and by the explicitly neo-nazi Blood & Honour group in the UK. Luka has posted a quote from an LD50 speaker who inspired Breivik and who praised him after his crime. Maybe that isn't "unequivocally fascist" to you?

    3. I don't know whether Josef K is a fascist or not. (The person behind the camera is a rising star of the alt-right and is a friend of Tommy Robinson of the EDL, but I understand they don't know each other). If he chooses to defend fascists then I'm afraid he can't expect that to be a neutral, intellectual, emotion free experience. The same is true (more so) for people who publicly oppose fascism. All of this mock horror raised eyebrow stuff is duplicitous bullshit. If you go to an anti-fascist protest to defend fascists there will be a reaction. Usually it will be proportionate, as it was in this case.

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    And this isnt just some abstract arty bullshit. LD50 hosted what was effectively a secret fascist conference.

    Guests at LD50’s Neoreaction conference last summer included Brett Stevens, the white supremacist whose writing was an inspiration to Oslo far-right terrorist Anders Breivik, who murdered 77 people in 2011.

    After Breivik’s attack, Stevens wrote: “I am honored to be so mentioned by someone who is clearly far braver than I, no comment on his methods, but he chose to act where many of us write, think and dream.”

    Others on the conference programme included anti-immigration activist Peter Brimelow, who runs Vdare, described by the Southern Poverty Law Centre as “an anti-immigration hate website” that “regularly publishes articles by prominent white nationalists, race scientists and antisemites”.

    Brimelow’s talk at LD50 was orientated around the threat imposed on “native white Americans” by a “great influx of third world immigration”. He said that while it was socially acceptable for Hispanic and Asian ethnic activists to call for more immigration, the only people who get criticised are whites; described the Black Lives Matter movement as a Democratic party racket purely designed to increase turmoil; and referred to the Jewish faction of the Democratic party vote as problematic.

    Gallery owner Lucia Diego said in a statement published on the LD50 website that the programme was intended to create “a dialogue between two different and contrasting ideologies” and that the audience for the conference was “very liberal”.

    However, a recording of Brimelow’s talk reveals that members of the audience who contributed to the discussion were predominately sympathetic to his views, agreeing with his statement about the need to remove the “corrupt treacherous elite” in government and one professing support for David Duke, the former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and Holocaust denier.

    Shut Down LD50 has accused the gallery, which has previously exhibited works by Turner Prize nominees Jake and Dinos Chapman, of curating “one of the most extensive programmes of racist hate speech to take place in London over the past 10 years”. They said the fact that the list of names of the conference speakers had been made public only after the event was finished was telling. “At first in secret, LD50 has acted as a platform for a cross-section of the most virulent advocates of contemporary extreme-right ideology.”
    Last edited by droid; 18-04-2017 at 03:43 PM.

  17. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post

    You may have noticed that there is a toxic internet culture in which threats are tossed about willy nilly every second.
    There have been some cases in Austria where those kind of threats led to convictions last year. It helped, that the people threatened were politicians (by the Green party mostly) but still.

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