vimothy

yurp
It won't be a great surprise if Trump's presidency is recuperated by the establishment (although there are some picks in with the Pence's and Reibus's -- e.g., Bannon and Mattis -- who are not establishment conservatives). At the same time, he represents something disruptive that has already realigned the political landscape in the States (recognition that globalisation creates losers and that they can vote; recognition of the conflict between America's self-interest and its role as gatekeeper for the international system, etc).
 

firefinga

Well-known member
It won't be a great surprise if Trump's presidency is recuperated by the establishment (although there are some picks in with the Pence's and Reibus's -- e.g., Bannon and Mattis -- who are not establishment conservatives). At the same time, he represents something disruptive that has already realigned the political landscape in the States (recognition that globalisation creates losers and that they can vote; recognition of the conflict between America's self-interest and its role as gatekeeper for the international system, etc).

The only things Trump has "disrupted" is the notion "old" mass media still matters as an election deciding factor - for THIS specific election under the specific circumstances. The notion that globalisation creates losers WITHIN the US (which isn't all that new either, the 1980s up until the early 1990s had the "Japanese panic") is already relegated to be a footnote. The Republican establishment has found its way behind Trump almost immediately after his win. The "Trump presidency" is shaping up to be a pact of Trump with the Republican establishment resulting in Trump (and some of his buddies) reaping financial gain as much as possible (=institutional corruption) and the Republican establishment getting through their agenda (dismantling Obamacare, tax cuts for themselves meaning the rich). The only field of possible conflict remains foreign policy.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
Hmm, perhaps I'm underestimating how easily dupeable people are. I suppose we've already seen that to some extent in the UK. But I'd like to think there is some limit, even if it's one imposed by Trump's own policies - e.g., if his famous wall ever does get built, continuing to blame economic problems on illegal immigrants will amount to an admission either that the wall was a complete waste of time and money because undocumented people are still somehow getting in, or that illegal immigration was never the main problem in the first place.

In a sense, I hope something like that happens in the UK when we eventually leave the EU, because then our government will no longer be able to blame Brussels and Strasbourg for all our socioeconomic woes.

These deflecting blame games can be executed as long as you have a (relative) majority behind you. And this can go on for a very long time. Of course, you could consider a "Trump presidency" to be a system of some sorts, and any system has a breaking point.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Now you've got an American President-Elect approvingly quoting Julian Assange!

Certainly not business as usual.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Quoting, or (who'd have thought it?!?!) misquoting? Assange has been been widely quoted as endorsing Trump in an interview with an Italian journalist, although apparently it's complete bollocks and Assange and the journalist are both pretty hacked off about it.

Edit: the transcript is here, if anyone's interested: http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2016/12/23/news/assange_wikileaks-154754000/ He doesn't exactly excoriate Trump, but one or two other commentators have got that angle covered, I think it's fair to say, and he certainly says nothing that could fairly be interpreted as 'praise', whether 'guarded' or not, contra Teh Graun. Of course, Breity is all over this like a rash.
 
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sadmanbarty

Well-known member
"[In Michigan] estimated additional employment associated with increased Medicaid spending peaked at over 39,000 jobs in 2016 and is projected to decline to approximately 30,000 jobs in 2021. About two thirds of these jobs are outside the health care sector, because of two factors. First, about one third of Healthy Michigan Plan spending represents preexisting spending by the state, employers, and individuals for which the federal government is assuming responsibility, thus freeing state and private resources to be spent in other ways. Second, about half the jobs created by the macroeconomic stimulus arise from the multiplier effect as new spending spreads through the economy. During these years, the increased personal income associated with new employment is expected to be relatively stable, at $2.2 billion to $2.4 billion per year. The added economic activity is projected to yield approximately $145 million to $153 million annually in new state tax revenue."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1613981
 
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sufi

lala
Bruce Sterling at the Well said:
But if you remove The Donald, and then gaze at the Republican
alternatives, the prospect of The Donald improves by comparison.
A Donaldless world is more disturbing than The Donald is.

For instance, even though he's obviously a con man, a rip-off artist
and thin-skinned egomaniac with zero interest in sane policy -- Ted
Cruz is worse. He's LOTS worse.

Even though The Donald's iconic, and a lightning rod for polarized
anxieties, Sarah Palin is worse at that activity than The Donald
is. Sure, Sarah's considered a lunatic now, but The Sarah could
have been vice president, and maybe even President. Yes, her, that
poor, deluded, blowhard creature. For a woman with rural rootsy
affinities whose motto is "Faith, Family and Flag," Sarah's pious,
right-to-lifer family is more soap-opera-broken even than The
Donald's bizarre family.

Paul Ryan, the current Speaker of the House, is, as far as I can
figure, the only guy in the Republican Party with a coherent
legislative agenda, other than looting. But the guy's a Tea Party
fanatic. His ambitions are eye-blindingly radical, but, well, Ryan
could also easily have been Vice President, and President.
However bad Ryan's gonna get in 2017, consider that he could have
been that bad years ago. Also, consider that the absence of The
Donald would probably empower Ryan vastly.


People worse than The Donald have been circling the Oval Office for
years and years now.
...

An extensively bad scene with deep roots in years of development.
Even though The Donald is ludicrously disastrous, he's not some lone
Frankenstein creature. He's part of the general texture of American
rot. A society this extensively troubled, for such a long time,
should probably shouldn't be pitying itself for electing a Donald.
Better if it somehow finds the courage to confront its own deep
inner Donaldness.
well worth reading the whole thing
http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/495/Bruce-Sterling-and-Jon-Lebkowsky-page01.html
 

vimothy

yurp
The only things Trump has "disrupted" is the notion "old" mass media still matters as an election deciding factor - for THIS specific election under the specific circumstances.

It's not that Trump is disruptive. He is representative of something else, symptomatic, an epiphenomenon of a crisis point of economic and political globalisation. In Europe, we have Brexit, the rise of Eurosceptic and even openly nationalistic parties in major EU states; economic stagnation and an at-risk banking and monetary system; far-right governments in central and eastern Europe; attacks from Islamist radicals and the refugee crisis which are harmful of the legitimacy of EU institutions, and on and on. In the US, Donald Trump, who was elected on a platform of anti-establishment rhetoric (even if entirely insincere) and in the face of establishment hostility; the ossification of the international system it leads and the failure of its foreign policy; wealth and income inequality at record levels; the rise of narcissistic and mutually antagonistic subcultures like the alt-right and SJWs. Trump captures part of the zeitgeist, in other words.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I agree that Trump is symptomatic of a trend and the product of a set of political, social and economic circumstances, and that he's very much the man in the right place at the right time (from his and supporters' POV I mean, obv) - but that can be said to an extent of any major historical figure, can't it? And it doesn't take away from the fact that it's his own personality and public style that's got him where he is. I mean, it's hardly as if he's the only mercurial, narcissistic, billionaire fuckhead in the USA, but he's the only one who's going to be sworn into office later this month.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
It's not that Trump is disruptive. He is representative of something else, symptomatic, an epiphenomenon of a crisis point of economic and political globalisation.

Alright, I reread your statement and you weren't saying he is disruptive, my bad. And I would agree that he among the other factors you've mentioned are symptomatic. But I think it's not so much a crisis point of globalisation as a whole, it's just we (meaning the West) has reached a point the globalisation is turning against "us".

I agree that Trump is symptomatic of a trend and the product of a set of political, social and economic circumstances, and that he's very much the man in the right place at the right time (from his and supporters' POV I mean, obv) - but that can be said to an extent of any major historical figure, can't it? And it doesn't take away from the fact that it's his own personality and public style that's got him where he is. I mean, it's hardly as if he's the only mercurial, narcissistic, billionaire fuckhead in the USA, but he's the only one who's going to be sworn into office later this month.

It remains to be seen if he is a "major" historical figure. I am sceptical, but this farce could be over quickly - or not. But he is certainly embodying a major crisis of the political system in the USA.
 

Leo

Well-known member
Trump asking Congress (i.e., US taxpayers), not Mexico, to fund the wall. Must admit, he's way better than most politicians at telling his supporters to go fuck themselves.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
Trump asking Congress (i.e., US taxpayers), not Mexico, to fund the wall. Must admit, he's way better at telling his supporters to go fuck themselves than most politicians.

Anybody surprised? In fact, I suspect there will never be a wall, but billions spent on planning that thing :crylarf:
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
It remains to be seen if he is a "major" historical figure. I am sceptical, but this farce could be over quickly - or not. But he is certainly embodying a major crisis of the political system in the USA.

Well I didn't necessarily mean to bracket him with Napoleon, Hitler and Jesus - but any POTUS is a 'major historical figure' in the sense of being nominally in charge of the world's biggest economy and most powerful military. And he's shaping up to be an exceptional (or rather, egregious) POTUS by any standard.
 

Leo

Well-known member
zinger from senate minority leader democrat chuck schumer re: trump appointment confirmation hearings:

C1wN2MKXgAEe822.jpg



 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
'The documents, reportedly compiled by a British former intelligence agent, alleged that the Kremlin was “cultivating, supporting and assisting” Trump for at least five years.

They also alleged that Russian spies exploited the president-elect’s “personal obsessions and sexual perversion” to gather compromising material.'

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...onald-trump-russia-documents-ethics-questions

Well this whole Trump story just keeps getting crazier and crazier.

Russia is alleged to have helped out/blackmailed Trump because he would be useful in discrediting democracy; I wonder if he's DELIBERATELY appointing the worst possible people to positions of power?
 
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