UK EU Referendum Thoughts

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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
i'd agree with the first part of that, which is precisely why neither you nor I were saying/implying anyone was a cunt. Apart from Blair. It's fine to troll here a bit, if it gets debate going/makes people think - better than endless consensus
 

Woebot

Well-known member
partly about the forum you choose to share those exxagerated opinions in id suggest

wrt the establishment i think you can hold 1 of 2 positions
1. there is an establishment
2. men that attend eton and/or oxbridge are a natural elite and therefore naturally rise to the top in our perfect meritocracy.

certainly influence is traded but there is no conspiracy.

the whole subject of the establishment is an irrelevant historical throwback. it is simply paranoia.
 

luka

Well-known member
Then obviously the onus is on you to explain certain coincidences... Im happy to admit being paranoid
 

luka

Well-known member
I realise you feel threatened by the amount of hostile rhetoric directed at old etonians but I'm not sure this is the best way to address it
 

droid

Well-known member
A couple of minor points

the whole argument here about neoliberalism - that the blair government was a re-run of thatcherism. really what that's about is that there is common-sense, centrist way to run government which strives to do the best by the whole population. so: if we (corbyn) push taxes too high - whether we like it or not - it is a disincentive for global corporations to settle here. [on the other hand] so: if we (cameron) crush the working and middle classes too much we get civil unrest and a miserable toxic society with people sleeping on the streets.

Are you including 'global corporations' as part of the 'population'?

Blair was not a centrist. He simply shoved the overton window so far to the right that he appears centrist to the credulous.

Do you dispute figures on inequality, share of wealth etc?

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anyone who thinks that the "ruling classes" form an "establishment" is nothing more than a paranoid fantasist. i say this to fools like owen wossisface with some insight into who these people are.

lol. Next you'll be saying the UK is a meritocracy.

Elites did not suddenly disappear at the advent of democracy. Those with money have power, and power protects its interests.

This is a trusim. Anyone who believes that there is no ruling class is outrageously naive, especially in the UK where it is so entrenched and pig fuckingly obvious.

The UK is a "deeply" elitist society, with the top jobs overwhelmingly held by people educated at private schools and Oxbridge, according to new research.

A staggering 59% of the Cabinet went to the universities of Oxford or Cambridge, compared to the average of less than 1% of the public as a whole, according to the research from The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, which said it was concerned about stagnant social mobility in the UK.

Of the Cabinet, 59% went to Oxbridge

Around 36% of the Cabinet also went to private schools, compared to only 7% of the public as a whole.

A third of all MPs (33%) and 22% of the Shadow Cabinet went to private schools, the report found.

The findings for politicians mirrored the wider trend for other influential positions in society.

Those who have studied at Oxford or Cambridge make up 75% of senior judges, 50% of diplomats, 44% of public body chairs.

The figures are drastically disproportionate with the national average of less than 1%.

More than one in three (38%) of members of the House of Lords also went to Oxbridge.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...ge-private-independent-schools_n_5723662.html

the likes of cameron and osbourne are not evil people - they are sincerely trying to do the best they can. just as the blair labour government was trying to do its best.

This is a non-sequitur. You can be 'evil' (whatever that means) and still try to sincerely do your best. Nobody thinks they are the villain. 'No man chooses evil, because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks.'

surely the capitalist forces of globalism have much more to gain with a hundred squabbling nation states? divide and conquer isn't it? they are much less accountable in that circumstance.in fact not only are global corporations at risk from the EU

I dont think this is true We have just witnessed entire nations thrown to the wolves by the ECB to placate the financial and banking sectors. Ive been in favour of the EU my entire life, but I would have a hard time convincing anyone of the benefits of membership now after all that has happened.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
The argument that a lot of politicians aren't scumbags is certainly one I've championed on this forum before now.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The argument that a lot of politicians aren't scumbags is certainly one I've championed on this forum before now.

I think there's an excellent argument that the current government is the worst we've had since the one that sent the flower of British manhood to die in the Belgian mud a century ago. Look at employment, education, law and order, health, housing, welfare: there is abundant evidence that current policy is making life harder for far more people than it's helping. And that's without even considering foreign and environmental policy, that have effects on people outside this country.

Either they're simply too stupid to see the effects they're having - in which case, how did they get into these jobs? - or they know and simply don't care. Or they care very much and are pleased with what they're doing, because we've had it too easy for too long, a bit of suffering is good for moral fibre after all.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
But there are hundreds of politicians who are not involved in the current government. And a lot of them aren't scumbags.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, yes, many of them are not scumbags. Unfortunately their presence doesn't cancel out that of the scumbags, who include among their number most if not all of the present cabinet.
 

Sectionfive

bandwagon house
All strata of British society have different and valid reasons to say in, or leave. There are some pretty hefty consequence for Ireland in the event of an exit (Northern partition becomes an EU border, trade-wise the republic is still a regional bloc of the UK economy, etc) but personally and politically I think the rupture would be welcome. Despite all the bluster, electorates everywhere are entirely conservative though so I don't see us facing the abyss any time soon

It's always sort of quaint to watch EU referendums from Ireland where peculiarities of our constitution means our betters are forced to scare the shite of us on the issue every five years since Maastricht. Speaking from that experience, I expect that for all British exceptionalism that surrounds this issue, voters will fall into line and accept their place. If the Scots bottled it, then the English don't have a chance really. The interests of business who benefit from full membership informs the same logic that governs Daily Express fuelled chat on a pub high stool and won't be too difficult to turn around. That bulldog spirit has always been a paper tiger, splendid isolation was an elite position and the elites are firmly to the technocratic hell that 'Europe' stands for now. It suits most of them just fine.

There are some pretty repugnant individuals who in fairness talk a very good game regarding the EU and Britain's membership. Not Farage but the old style Edmond Burke devotees who would have been his, less vulgar, ideological OGs. Years have been spent whipping up the existential crisis but it will all end in retreat, the out camp are chasing a past that never existed while the in camp hoping for one that will never arrive, in the present course of action at least. I just wonder what will replace the EU dividing wedge once that, most effective, bogeyman is off the table.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
The split in the Out campaign is particularly fascinating. The Carswell-Hannon group going for the "positive" Atlanticist Free Trade argument vs. the populist Farage wing banging on about immigration and EU migration. Like the old Trots, they are currently more at each others throats than going for their real In enemies.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I agree that the British will "bottle it" (your phrase), and vote In. But like the Scots, it will be close.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
It's always a mistake to caricature or reduce or tie-in Edmund Burke, one of the most complex characters in British political history.
 

droid

Well-known member
But there are hundreds of politicians who are not involved in the current government. And a lot of them aren't scumbags.

So what? The problem is systemic. Regardless of individual personalities, the simple fact is that principles are a liability in politics and it is all too easy to support policies that inflict harm on people outside of one's immediate circles, which, for politicians, is most of the population.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There are 650 MPs

And yet however many non-scumbaggy ones there are, they've consistently been too few or two weak to resist the barrage of terrible laws being passed by the scumbaggy ones. The spare bedroom tax was passed by a vote of 298 to 266 - a policy which has now cost more, in terms of its implementation and the government's legal fights against challenges, than it's saved.
 
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