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Thread: It's great when you're straight

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    so, if someone, anyone, male or female, goes to their GP and says, as above "i'm thinking of ending it all Dr Benny", chances are that GP will dose them with an inadequate anti-depressant, delay referral to a CMHT because of waiting lists, which may just be the start of said patient's problems, and from there suicide risks become elevated, because theres a galaxy sized gap between what a GP can or will do & being sectioned.....that is the real abyss & until you're forced to navigate it nothing else compares

    capitalism is the main culprit, vast swathes of post-industrial service sector industries, people looking for help from a heath service that simply doesnt want to know (as an institution)
    and as I've pointed out to you before - and been rebuffed for the purposes of continuing an argument - we agree on a lot of things, such as the above. Obviously so because we've both had experience of the same screwed-up system.

    You hit it on the head there - 'male or female' - the system treats both badly. So we have to look elsewhere to see why men are killing themselves at a greater rate than women.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Tea, genuinely good to see you back here!
    Cheers man, good to be back.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    (but please read what I actually said)
    (but why break the habit of a lifetime? )
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
    i hate sigs

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  4. #153
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    Capitalism has become synonym with unbridled capitalism. Capitalism and strong, effective social programs are by no means mutually exclusive.

  5. #154
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    Lol this thread has been well and truly derailed.
    yeah ultimately the thread was just for me to boast about how much weight ive lost and act all self-righteous but never mind

    Snickers4ever
    5h ago
    76 77

    I have tried to write this several times but it keeps coming out wrong so forgive me if it sounds bad.

    But I am sick of the 'Black' or 'female' issues being rammed down my throat. It feels like an attempt to make me and other white men feel guilty about ...something...Racism, sexism, wage disparity....when the vast majority of us are nothing of the sort. I refuse to be made to feel like some sort of creep or racist.

    I see only a Marvel film here. However I think in its attempt to 'be black' it has gone too far the other way and seems exclusively black down to the romanticized view of an African country and with faux 'African' accents (which is just insulting to everyone).
    I also had an issue with (in comprehensively) Oscar nominated film Get Out where the whole White people exploiting Black people seemed shoe-horned in with no actual relevance to the over-all story - unless it was being racist against white people.

    I'm sorry but all of these labels and separation do nothing to further the cause of racial harmony. All it does is further divide people and this article and many other like it don't help one jot.

    As I said, all I see is a Marvel film here and I'd like to hope that it wouldn't further the seemingly increasing divide between people. But I think it has and will.

  6. #155
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    ProbablyOnTopic MattB242
    5h ago
    20 21

    It's funny that you're criticising my reading skills, as you apparently didn't read my post that you replied to originally.

    Again, then: I have never heard a non-white person use the term in the flesh. It seems to be the preserve of painfully right-on journalists and social media commenters. You're not asking me to respect non-white people's wishes, you're asking me to respect your wishes.

    And I won't, because it's homogenising. It suggests that all non-white people fit into a natural category other than 'human beings'. Just like 'ethnic' and 'coloured'. I won't use a term that implies there's something special about being white.
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    Mark Tyler MattB242
    5h ago
    10 11

    I would refer you to Jordan Petersons take on enforced language. I'm happy to oblige anyone as long as enforced language isn't a necessity.
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    Mark Tyler MattB242
    5h ago
    14 15

    My good friends Jag and Devi are Punjabi. They are old school and worked like hell to create the best possible outcomes for their kids They have no doubt received some abuse along the way. My friend Jed is from a Muslim background. My friends Chanel and Basil are black. Not one of them is asking me to change the way that I address them. "Use my pronouns" seems as ridiculous to them as it does to me
    .

  7. #156
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    -
    Mark Tyler MattB242
    3h ago
    4 5

    I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.

    Is that enough? I have no privelige. I'm a poor sod, a single parent and I'm trying to get from month to month. I have no privelige. What somebody elses ancestors did has nothing to do with me.

    My ancestors? My mum was too young to be evacuated from the Blitz. I can tell you that Londeners were pretty fu**ed up by that. My dad was evacuated, but had to come home to his neglectful mother. My grandfather was blown off a factory roof whilst on fire watch, and died in hospital of his injuries. On the other side my grandfather was blinded in an accident and died young because of neglect. My grandmother lost all of her family in Polish death camps.

    What privelige
    ?

  8. #157
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    Where are you going with this, exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
    i hate sigs

  9. #158
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  10. #159
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    Well I've got an idea but I don't think it's helping the thread move forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
    i hate sigs

  11. #160
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    life is too short to have to sift thru past posts just to clarify a specific point, but here it is, i'm not repeating the process because a couple of you appear to take more delight in poking fun @ de-legitimizing someone else's point of view by claiming they're the culprit at derailing discussion & confusing the issue, when they should be looking closer to home...

    soooo, heads up heathens, here it is, zero memes included:

    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done.
    the context for patriarchy was posited as the reason why certain national press agencies continue to ignore a vast national public health crisis of ungodly proportions, if all this attention is on the latest Weinstein, Spacey, *insert celebrity sex predator here scandal, ie: that men are the root of all society's ills, when right under their noses thousands of preventable male deaths are occurring week week out, then the subject is never going to attain the degree of analysis it deserves to reverse problem.

    no wonder then that the general public, society, our health care system & our political representatives continue to ignore the problem, when the gulf between left wing & right wing ideological polarities has never appeared so high.

    all of us need to find some form of consensus on the matter in hand, to meet each other on some form of public platform to try to understand the problem in its fullest context, because only then can anything change.

    do we see this discussion anywhere in the media, via NHS professionals or via our political representatives?

    do we fk, because the Tory hordes want to partially dismantle & privatize the NHS on ideological grounds as best it can and the opposite side is fixated on patriarchy as the root of all evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    really, the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created) has to bear much of the responsibility, so that talking about one's feelings = a 'feminine' trait, rather than a human one, and stoicism in the face of any amount of emotional pain continues to be seen as 'male'. Men create this prison for themselves. Until men 'allow' other men to seek help for mental health issues by creating a more open culture of maleness (and not shaming them for it), then men will continue to kill themselves at alarming rates.
    .

    you managed to take one observation & run with it to another level by taking it completely out of context, thats why my own reply was so derisive.

    it reeks of the worst aspects of the current fixation on patriarchy as the definitive cause of societal ills (see the Guardian allusion above), is misinformed, poorly thought through and completely irrelevant & inappropriate when it comes to the modern NHS crisis and your generalization that men are so terrified of shaming themselves that suicide is a better resolution.

    this is fundamentally wrong, because it ignores the complexity of causes & effects....which is why this reply conveyed my exacerbation at such a degraded understanding of the matter in hand =

    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    patriarchal attitudes have been far more entrenched in the past, but there arent anywhere near the same the rates of correlation with suicide, not by a huge margin.

    equally mental health services have never been so expansive (yet still sketchy as fuck).

    yet essentially you're saying rates of male suicide are down to males suppressing emotions, that this is a patriarchal prison, stoically self-made & self-perpetuating = really?
    baboon2004
    as I've pointed out to you before - and been rebuffed for the purposes of continuing an argument.

    rebuffed not for the sake of continuing an argument, more the critical lack of awareness in your own approach in explaining patriarchal roles as one of the main causes of male suicide.... its not rocket science but it is indicative of someone who doesnt have a survivors view of the problem.

    by pinpointing why, how & where your position lacked insight, empathy & a fuller understanding of the problem, i'm accused of derailing the thread.

    so be it.

    its the default option of immature minds to accuse someone of derailing a subject because you dont agree with their criticism of the weaknesses in your own understanding of the subject....a "debate" can not develop if individuals fail to see or engage with the flaws in their own ideological scaffolding.

    this is why you've become increasingly defensive & lobbed the derailing euphemism as soon as you encountered a counter-point to your own false logic & to de-legitimize anything i expressed (except very broad consensus that there is a problem, thank the gods), its something i deal with week in/week out with MH services, consultants, SHO's & CPN's, which is why i'm not surprised to see a MH worker spout the "P-word" (sorry i just couldnt type that word out one more time)

    whether trying to cut thru the complexities of defining capitalism, its role in creating so much pressure on MH services which cant cope with the demands being placed upon them, through to institutional obfuscation where clinicians serve to preserve their own careers & self-interest over the greater public interest.....thats not just a problem, its a national disgrace because the outcome for patients can be so severe it beggars belief just how endemic the fault-lines are & it isnt going to go away anytime soon.

    part of the problem identified from my own advocacy work, is that GP's tend to be more empathetic/sympathetic with women expressing concerns over their mental health than they are with men, if the women concerned are mothers even more so because their anxieties will then generally be higher still & a GP will usually interpret such behaviour as a probable cause & a direct influence on their ability to manage their parenting roles. Younger women, particularly students, who tend to be more agreeable than men, face a greater problem here, but university services are slowly beginning to recognize the problem & every higher education facility now has its own internal counseling service, Cardiff has even started doing EMDR sessions for social anxiety for all sexes & genders, which is making a significant difference to the mental health of students. Once they leave university the problems are then greatly amplified due to state of the current MH sector.

    to focus back on the main theme here, men are clearly currently facing some kind of sex-identity crisis, for minor but illuminating proof just look at the number of weight training clones & the range of tattoos & beards currently doing the rounds compared to 20-30yrs ago.....this isnt just fashion, its one area where masculinity can be expressed albeit in a very limited & confined field....equally the weight training/body image aesthetic rarely has little to do with fitness, health or self-defense awareness/capability & is all about image projection in a world where individual agency has never faced more influence from marketing imagery about how a man should look (rather than behave) & institutional bs from a post-post-industrial world. Very very few male gym clones will take up Jujitsu or Krav Maga as a way to purge the mind & improve their health, so the expression of beards, tattoos & muscle bulk are for public display. The question again loops back to why?

    No doubt women face an even more aggressive & ageist marketing onslaught about how to look, which can spiral into eating disorders, fat shaming anxiety driven horror, compounded by the corrosive influence of social media (instagram users beware), facebook's habit of falsely framing & validating the multitude of "look at what a happy families &/or individuals we all are, heres 150photos of our last holiday...." etc

    If i've repeated myself on the odd occasion in previous posts, it was because repeated misunderstandings were being re-presented, from the P-word to the comment about a male suicide gene....the latter of which i'm not averse to seeing the humour in, but the former :face-palm:

    Nonetheless, if we were sat around a pub table, chewing the fat face to face (pork scratchins and a diet coke please!), the communication here would have been clearer & more streamlined, but when folks lob "derailing" terms in to de-legitimize someone else's point of view, that particularly strategy of provocation & making them appear irrelevant aswell as disregarding what their evidence-based experiences are, will get the short shrift deserved.

    sorry i couldnt be more brief, a couple of lines for answers usually suffice on forums, but some of the posts here barely justify a response, maybe thats the best policy from now on.

    *edit - caught this on the way home in the car last night, highly recommended & very well put together program on an " investigation of how and why individuals and organisations learn from their mistakes or fail to do so. In this episode he explores how government could get better at experimenting and adapting from when things go wrong." (no dload sory)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xxfz7
    Last edited by cwmbran-city; 01-02-2018 at 06:30 PM.

  12. #161
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    " if all this attention is on the latest Weinstein, Spacey, *insert celebrity sex predator here scandal, ie: that men are the root of all society's ills, when right under their noses thousands of preventable male deaths are occurring week week out, then the subject is never going to attain the degree of analysis it deserves to reverse problem."

    Quite simply one of the worst opinions ive ever read on dissensus, ever. Blaming focus on a global movement of women speaking out about endemic sexual abuse for men committing suicide.

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  14. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    yeah ultimately the thread was just for me to boast about how much weight ive lost and act all self-righteous but never mind
    i can confirm that you do indeed have the physique of a bloke that girls from art school fancy.

    cwabrn, you've been through enough. go post betty davis eyes on choon of the day. skim through the meme thread. add some insights on the counting crows one. reassure corpsey about his poetry comprehension. have you got an opinion about dominic datwun you could tag on the deep tech thread?

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  16. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    rebuffed not for the sake of continuing an argument, more the critical lack of awareness in your own approach in explaining patriarchal roles as one of the main causes of male suicide.... its not rocket science but it is indicative of someone who doesnt have a survivors view of the problem.

    by pinpointing why, how & where your position lacked insight, empathy & a fuller understanding of the problem, i'm accused of derailing the thread.

    so be it.

    its the default option of immature minds to accuse someone of derailing a subject because you dont agree with their criticism of the weaknesses in your own understanding of the subject....a "debate" can not develop if individuals fail to see or engage with the flaws in their own ideological scaffolding.
    'Derailing the thread' didn't relate to you at all, for what it's worth. I was talking about the deviation from Luka's original post.

    You're making yourself look petty by resorting to completely unsubstantiated ad hominem criticisms of someone you don't know. I don't know whether to be annoyed or bemused. Particularly accusing someone whose father died in a mental health ward last year after being sectioned, of 'lacking empathy and a fuller understanding of the problem' - no it wasn't suicide, but believe me the issues of constant attacks on the self and wanting to die were/are very similar. To use your own phrasing, it's not rocket science to understand that other people have lived experience too.

    I just read that comment that Benny picked out - pretty much confirms my original criticism. "You managed to take one observation & run with it to another level by taking it completely out of context" - seems not, and that you actually are invested in a narrative about how oppressed men are. Maturity consists - among other things - in being able to recognise other forms of oppression that do not relate directly to you, and respecting that tackling these is not a danger to your own concerns. Elsewhere in your posts though you do allude to the issues that women face (seemingly tacitly agreeing with all I've said about the socialisation of gender being an important factor in mental health), so I think it's just joining the dots.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 02-02-2018 at 12:00 PM.

  17. #164
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    Very sorry to hear about your dad Baboon. Condolences.

  18. #165
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    thanks mate, appreciate it. i don't really want to make this about validity of personal experience, but sometimes i guess it's best to share where you're coming from

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