All good music comes from religion

padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
incidentally I've been to Graceland and it's as close as you can get in the United States to a Santiago de Compostela etc type shrine

minus the invisible weight of history, of course, but with the unmistakable aura of relentless ambition ("a dream with a V-8 engine" to quote the man)
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
and on "Coltrane to Rick James to Mavado"

all of those are much, much closer to spiritual ecstasy than they are to organized religion

undoubtedly they were all influenced by their experiences in organized religion (at least the first 2; I'll take your word on Movado, as I know basically nothing about dancehall)

but their art is undoubtedly on the estatic side

Coltrane the mystical, transcendent, awe-inspiring. Rick James the suffusion of joy, estatic movement, etc

do you need The Church for that? not really
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
Just to clarify Padraig, you are disputing that the bible has a central role in western culture? That's a bold claim. It's not one I've heard made before. Interesting albeit demonstrably batty.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
luka said:
I'd also kick against the notion that the religious impulse and the religious experience is synonymous with striving for transcendence
Click to expand...
perhaps not synonymous, that's true

but it's a core element, and never not present. it's the sine qua non of the religious impulse.

"transcendence" is a word with much baggage, but to answer the unanswerable, explain the unexplainable, etc. why else did people invent gods?
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
luka said:
Just to clarify Padraig, you are disputing that the bible has a central role in western culture?
Click to expand...
don't put words in my mouth

my only claim is that what is "religious" in art is closer to spiritual ecstasy than it is to religious infrastructure

yall that ones arguing that Rick James has more to do with scripture etc than with trying to lose oneself in something greater

make your case
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
What makes you think people 'invented' gods?

But leaving that aside again I refuse to accept striving for transcedence as indispensable for religion. I think it's a variety of religious experience and practice and nothing more.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Corpsey said:
from a religious perspective, EVERYTHING is religious, whether or not its aware of it
Click to expand...
some of what I/others trying to get at with belief vs. devotion

there's a Camus line about humans being "prisoners to our truths". when you know, or believe, a thing, there is no mystery to it.

whereas devotion can be in service of a belief, but need not be. it can be about the search, the attempt, or the feeling.

there is an area of overlap where you know a thing but not all its qualities, which is where religion mysticism exists
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
luka said:
What makes you think people 'invented' gods?
Click to expand...
well that's the crux of the matter ain't it

do you literally believe in Jesus, Allah, Odin, Shiva, whatever deity or deities?

any deity you don't believe in, you acknowledge to be the product of human ingenuity
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
padraig (u.s.) said:
well that's the crux of the matter ain't it

do you literally believe in Jesus, Allah, Odin, Shiva, whatever deity or deities?

any deity you don't believe in, you acknowledge to be the product of human ingenuity
Click to expand...

I disagree. Reductionist in a way which offends my sensibilities.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
there can be religious practice without transcendence, but not worship

religion without striving for something is just going thru motions

I'm not saying there's no value to ritual etc of itself

but anyone who truly believes by definition believes in something greater than themselves

the claim that art is more like religious practice (an empty vessel) than religious impulse (what fills the vessel, what it was designed to carry) strikes me as odd

but if that's the claim you and barty are making, fair enough. I just disagree.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
come on, enough with the passive aggression, say what you mean

I gotta go to work but I promise to come back later and offer up an honest response
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
padraig (u.s.) said:
there can be religious practice without transcendence, but not worship

religion without striving for something is just going thru motions

I'm not saying there's no value to ritual etc of itself

but anyone who truly believes by definition believes in something greater than themselves

the claim that art is more like religious practice (an empty vessel) than religious impulse (what fills the vessel, what it was designed to carry) strikes me as odd

but if that's the claim you and barty are making, fair enough. I just disagree.
Click to expand...

This is straightforwardly false. It's a blinkered, one dimensional view of what religion entails. It's the rock and roll take on religion.

Also me and Barry are making different arguments from different directions.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
luka said:
This is straightforwardly false. It's a blinkered, one dimensional view of what religion entails
Click to expand...
obviously I disagree with you

doesn't seem like you're really trying to have a discussion, so whatever

could do without the insults and (massively unearned, as always) condescension, but also whatever. I know you can't really control it.

and I'm aware you're making different arguments, but you're here defending his, so

if you wanna make a response of value, gfi. if not, no skin off mine.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
for a man who talks constantly about the psychedelic, you remain as always startlingly parochial

thanks for reminding me why I took a long break from this place
 
S

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
luka said:
Just to clarify Padraig, you are disputing that the bible has a central role in western culture? That's a bold claim. It's not one I've heard made before. Interesting albeit demonstrably batty.
Click to expand...

this seems to be the post where there was a miscommunication of intent.

i think luka was going for facetious rather than cunty, but i can see from padraig's perspective why it might not have come across that way.

hopefully that clears things up and we can all move on.

))))):love:((((((
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top