the socialism of fools
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
when the issue is almost always presented in such a one-sided de facto way, it's meaningful to show rational dissenting views
john eden
male pale and stale
It does feel a bit undignified but what are Corbyn supporting Jews supposed to do when usually racist shitbags like the Daily Mail are telling everyone that all Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite?
Very hard for the rest of us to get a grip on how representative the various groups and individuals are though.
Bit of a shitshow.
Very hard for the rest of us to get a grip on how representative the various groups and individuals are though.
Bit of a shitshow.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
using the tactics of boycott and divestment against the Israeli govt and/or Israeli companies isn't inherently anti-Semitic
BDS the movement is more complicated
for one, it definitely harbors or has as bedfellows some legitimate anti-Semites
admittedly that can be hard to self-police in an activist setting, but no one's making much of an effort to do so - that I've seen
another problem is its blanket nature - i.e., it's a boycott not just Israeli institutions, but of Israeli individuals
including and perhaps especially those (artists, academics) who'd be most likely to oppose the worst policies of the Israeli government
a lot of it comes down to 2 things
1) how much you buy the Israel = apartheid South Africa argument
2) to what extent you think BDS acts as a shell vehicle for anti-Semitism
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
for me - boycott everything to do with the settlements, any products they produce, etc. they're illegal.
if you want to divest from Israeli businesses to protest the actions of the government, fine. it's a legitimate position to hold.
the academic boycott - by far the most prominent aspect of BDS - is dumb and counterproductive
it's better in general at making claims than achieving much. it's had basically no impact on the Israeli economy.
and the blanket nature of it is exactly what makes it vulnerable to claims that it's just a front for delegitimizing Israel.
if you want to divest from Israeli businesses to protest the actions of the government, fine. it's a legitimate position to hold.
the academic boycott - by far the most prominent aspect of BDS - is dumb and counterproductive
it's better in general at making claims than achieving much. it's had basically no impact on the Israeli economy.
and the blanket nature of it is exactly what makes it vulnerable to claims that it's just a front for delegitimizing Israel.
sufi
lala
Thanks all for keeping this discussion so civil
Amazingly dissensus has been tracking this issue since the first accusation was levelled at dear jeremy
Amazingly dissensus has been tracking this issue since the first accusation was levelled at dear jeremy
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
right tactics, wrong people, poor execution
for Palestinians, boycotts and divestment are probably yes, the best of a bad bunch, in coordination with domestic protest etc
BDS itself is a self-aggrandizing effort that primarily exists in bitter campus debates, celebrity endorsements, and headline generation
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
tbf that's definitely beyond the control of individual Palestinians
luka
Well-known member
Reminds me of the extinction rebellion debate here one question is if these people are right in thinking these campaigns must be run through the media, as, uh, the spectacle... and if so then all the things you mention are unavoidable. At some level if the cause is the right one you have to forgive a certain amount of clumsiness
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
if you're only talking about Gaza/West Bank, there's a very solid argument. for Israeli Arabs, less so but not non-existent.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
there's clumsiness and there's ugliness. the former is forgivable, the latter isn't.
how much ugliness BDS contains or represents is a matter of debate.