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Thread: The Jooooozzzzzz

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    I don't know the ins and outs but i think BDS as a strategy is the best of a bad bunch and is needed
    right tactics, wrong people, poor execution

    for Palestinians, boycotts and divestment are probably yes, the best of a bad bunch, in coordination with domestic protest etc

    BDS itself is a self-aggrandizing effort that primarily exists in bitter campus debates, celebrity endorsements, and headline generation

  2. #257
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    tbf that's definitely beyond the control of individual Palestinians

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig (u.s.) View Post
    right tactics, wrong people, poor execution

    for Palestinians, boycotts and divestment are probably yes, the best of a bad bunch, in coordination with domestic protest etc

    BDS itself is a self-aggrandizing effort that primarily exists in bitter campus debates, celebrity endorsements, and headline generation
    Reminds me of the extinction rebellion debate here one question is if these people are right in thinking these campaigns must be run through the media, as, uh, the spectacle... and if so then all the things you mention are unavoidable. At some level if the cause is the right one you have to forgive a certain amount of clumsiness

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    Having been there I buy it
    if you're only talking about Gaza/West Bank, there's a very solid argument. for Israeli Arabs, less so but not non-existent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    At some level if the cause is the right one you have to forgive a certain amount of clumsiness
    there's clumsiness and there's ugliness. the former is forgivable, the latter isn't.

    how much ugliness BDS contains or represents is a matter of debate.

  6. #261
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    tbc I'm not suggesting the clumsiness and lameness of BDS should stop people from advocating boycott and divestment, if that's what they think is right

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    I do think there's a unique responsibility with anything related to Jews, to demarcate yourself from anti-Semitism clearly and continuously

    it's unique not because Jews are inherently more deserving, but for specific historical reasons as stated ad nauseam in this thread and elsewhere

    if you don't, anti-Semitism will inevitably creep in even if it wasn't there to begin with; it always does

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  9. #263
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    I wasn't talking about BDS specifically everything I know about them comes from a particularly fractious Facebook debate I witnessed, strong opinions on both sides...

    Just as a more general point about activist groups. Sometimes it feels like people will withhold their support from any group falling short of sainthood regardless of the justice of the cause and the necessity of acting. It's quite difficult cos these are structural, oppositional roles that must be filled. Someone has to do this work. And... I don't, I leave it to others....

  10. #264
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    I think the discussion has been pretty well mannered, yes, in response to Sufi's post. I guess that's 'cos Dissensus is a bit siloed, and a lot of us know each other or at least our respective positions. It's hard to have a discussion on the wider internet about anti-semitism in Labour that doesn't automatically tend towards polarisation and abuse and this will continue and worsen as the election goes on. Primary colours only for the next 5 weeks. And its a complex phenomena with a lot of moving parts. It feels to me the debate as it's constituted in the wider media is very much a product of the social media environment and all the bad that involves - lots of bruised emotions and a general stiffening and defence of positions rather than good faith engagement with the other sides. Labour Party management and their political enemies all feed into this of course and push and promote these positions.
    Last edited by DannyL; 08-11-2019 at 09:59 PM.

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  12. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    It feels to me the debate as it's constituted in the wider media is very much a product of the social media environment and all the bad that involves - lots of bruised emotions and a general stiffening and defence of positions rather than good faith engagement with the other sides. Labour Party management and their political enemies all feed into this of course and push and promote these positions.
    I think there are only "other sides" to a single aspect of this issue. Anti-semitism we all oppose. The problem of anti-semitism within the Labour Party we're trying to address. So the only argument really is in how big a problem it is.

    What we reject are the notions that: (1) the Labour Party is riddled with anti-semitism; (2) the Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic; and (3) the leader of the Labour Party is himself anti-semitic. From our perspective there is no good faith engagement with any of these positions.

    So, yes, when they're used to attack us we get defensive and angry, and our natural reaction is to question why they're being propagated, by whom and to what end. It's hardly to the benefit of either the Labour Party or the Jewish community. I think we're probably all being played here.
    Last edited by subvert47; 09-11-2019 at 09:20 AM.

  13. #266
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    further on this subject...

    a new piece by Antony Lerman:
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...ganda-machine/

  14. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by subvert47 View Post

    What we reject are the notions that: (1) the Labour Party is riddled with anti-semitism; (2) the Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic; and (3) the leader of the Labour Party is himself anti-semitic. From our perspective there is no good faith engagement with any of these positions.

    So, yes, when they're used to attack us we get defensive and angry, and our natural reaction is to question why they're being propagated, by whom and to what end. It's hardly to the benefit of either the Labour Party or the Jewish community. I think we're probably all being played here.
    As I observe it, when these positions are presented in response to someone making an allegation of anti-semitisim, it's often heard as a denial or dismissal of their claims. The claimant will then feel angry/aggrieved/unheard, double down on their position and so the cycle continues. This isn't helped by the fact that a lot of these discussions take place on social media, which breeds adversarial communication. I pretty much agree and understand your last paragraph. Don't know if I see a way to square this circle.
    Last edited by DannyL; 11-11-2019 at 09:58 AM.

  15. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Lansman
    This is the most thorough & effective defence of Jeremy Corbyn I’ve seen against the charge of antisemitism (which he certainly doesn’t diminish) from an Economist (Prof Simon Wren-Lewis) who is “no Corbyn fan, & actively campaigned against him in 2016"
    https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/201...isemitism.html
    Last edited by subvert47; 16-11-2019 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by subvert47 View Post
    Oh dear.

    _20191116_170428.JPG

    Maybe it was (((them)))...
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

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