what elevates pop music over dance music?

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
compositionally speaking, we can't say that most contemporary pop music is more complicated than dance music, this becomes hard to justify when you go into the weirder ends of breakcore and speedcore. in this sense I find it hard to take the idea seriously of 'oh it's just druggy dance music' ignoring the inextricable role that drugs play in 2010s pop culture. Put it this way, shut up and dance/4 hero could make mindwarping trippy psychedelia whilst being straight edge, dave clarke could play and release hard noisy techno having never touched E's and speed. Jeff Mills is anything but a druggy. Gabba terrorist loftgroover himself was not all that impressed with E's and relatively sober from what I've heard.

It seems very hard to imagine Future, Travis Scott and lil wayne doing what they do without the aid of chemical stimulation though. not saying impossible, and not a value judgment, but I do tend to feel the all under one roof raving ecstasy mythology is lionised by proponents of this stuff to big up their own cultural capital.

This is also not to say that all druggy pop music is great or bad, like most things there are variations. But this would probably be good to discuss in terms of the xanax thread.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
the obvious objection is that a druggy culture can have straight edge/non-druggy outliers in its ranks. I do find this attitude a bit patronising, being ambivalent about 'drug culture' though not drug taking as such.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Contra Luka my objection to mdma culture is not that it is counter-revolutionary or bourgeois or any such party line propaganda like that. If that were the case I would have never indulged.

No, my objection is far more fundamental than that. you go to a rave, you emotionally open up to strangers, and then you go back home and it's the same old emotionally reserved distant and cold cycle. It's basically anti-humanisms ideological legitimising through a Philip K Dick mood organ scenario. It probably in the longterm closes you up even more emotionally, certainly did with me. you basically burnt out your serotonergic receptors for nothing. yeah, fantastic, the mysticism of the experience. all praise be to Allah that's great and admirable but at the end of the day you've got to take home a lesson, if only a fleeting one. I can certainly understand why medical professionals are ambivalent towards ravers giving the therapeutic use of MDMA a bad name, though I obviously don't agree with it, merely empathise.
 
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version

Well-known member
It seems very hard to imagine Future, Travis Scott and lil wayne doing what they do without the aid of chemical stimulation though.

I can't find the interview now, but Future claimed his vocal style came about because he was so fucked on coke in the studio one time he couldn't unclench his jaw properly and just sang with it.
 

luka

Well-known member
I wasn't saying druggie noise bad pop good. For me drug noise sets up a contained space that synergises with the drugs. An electrified chamber. Which is great, when I'm on drugs. quite magical.
 

luka

Well-known member
And the opposition isn't really about dance vs pop. What's inherently interesting about the popular is it's very popularity
 
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luka

Well-known member
Because it begs the question why this, now? Why is this connecting with the people at this juncture of the timeline? A
Why is it happening?

This is why the Xanax thread is a good thread becuase it's not about squabbling over the value of the music, most of us are ambivalent about it at best and most are positively hostile. It's about trying to understand why it might be resonating what conditions it might be reflecting and creating reflecting and sustaining reflecting and amplifying
 

luka

Well-known member
What is it about the culture that led it to create out of its own flesh a Nas in the 90s a lil Wayne in the 00s a young thug in the 10s?

Why is it impossible to create a Nas now? What changed? Why?
 

luka

Well-known member
Genres that exist in stasis to provide an unchanging eternal archetypal experience are all well and good. This is the house zone. It is a pool you step into or you don't. It offers the eternal timeless experience of house vibes. Drum and bass. Happy hardcore. Interesting of these to analyse what is offered and why we need it or might want it but different to the popular which is linked inextricably to the movements of history.
 

luka

Well-known member
This is what makes the popular a kind of nooscope.

"The nooscope, very simply put, analyzes and manipulates the noosphere.

The nooscope is a device that consists of a network of spatial scanners [utilizing "smartdust"] meant for the receipt and record of changes in the biosphere and human activity with the help of transactions — 'film shots' of events — images of space-time-life intersections...The nooscope is the first device of its kind that allows for the study of humanity's collective mind."
 

luka

Well-known member
To what extent it reflects the collective consciousness and to what extent it manipulates it is thrillingly ambiguous
 

luka

Well-known member
What is the spectacle, really? Is it our own fever dream writ large or is it a puppet show staged to deceive us
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
My first impressions on reading the OP are that sometimes, Third, you squeeze history together. Like it's all happening at the same time. Perhaps this is a product of how you consume music now, with lots of retrospective listening, Idk. But the utopian rave thing was very much a product of the late 80s/early 90s first flushes of MDMA usage - not saying people (you for one and me) weren't doing MDMA later but the exciting/exhiliaring discourse around it - that seems to me very time specific. It's easy to believe, buy into and enact when that's very much part of the collective discussion which it was at the time, and spawned sound systems, parties and so on. Everyone who went to those early raves had been exposed to this conversation so there was a collective exciment that was absent later. There was a crossover with travelling as well, Castle Morton etc. which did make it seem like another world was possible, if only for a second. much less so at a later point. Dunno if this adds owt to the discussion.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
nah I can believe it, even when I discovered house music and hardcore there was a dream of sorts that would be the resonant music for the rest of my lifetime and there was no way it would be shaped by societal considerations and the like. it was pure alien shit etc etc.

I just loathe the standardised approach to talking about music these days (nme/pitchfork/the face/stereogum) It's like reading the new statesman. just opinions and facts. boring positivism. noone has any convictions left anymore. It's hard to know why people try to use music as some great overarching discourse. it just reads like a government report written by a sociology policy graduate (cool if thats ur thing.) gazing into the crystal ball and ruminating but what dynamism does that bring to people? nothing. Again people can have a pop leaning value set but when it's identical to the post-dubstep commentariat one has to wonder why you don't justv dissolve oneself in their ph.d faeces (I mean, theses...)
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Genres that exist in stasis to provide an unchanging eternal archetypal experience are all well and good. This is the house zone. It is a pool you step into or you don't. It offers the eternal timeless experience of house vibes. Drum and bass. Happy hardcore. Interesting of these to analyse what is offered and why we need it or might want it but different to the popular which is linked inextricably to the movements of history.

See I just can't agree with this. rap has a 200000 core audience in the UK. most of the UK is jangle music, smiths/indie etc etc, they only really changed after 2008 when it became inevitable that they were gonna be left behind. this is important because what is genuinely popular in the states may be artificially popular over here.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
t's probably why I cling to that dream a little bit. I can remember getting so excited reading about this shit for a few years before I went - in a time before social media so your sources of information input were much more limited. And then going and knowing (implicitly, I wouldn't have articulated it like this at the time) that thousands of the people there with you had been thinking along the same lines. That's the thing about raving, it was properly broad based in a way that not much I've seen since has been. You'd walk down the street and hear Fantasy pumping out a car, all my mates were excited about going to Raindance or Berwick Manor (being the big things around the East/Essex border). And it did seem to change behaviour for a minute. People stopped boozing, smacking/slashing someone at footie on a Saturday seemed so passe you know? Was present in all the fashion, colourful Chipie, Naf Naf gear was everywhere. Terrible Joe Bloggs flares. So it was easy to buy into.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
by the time UK radio picks up rap/rnb hits they have already moved forward in the states. In that regard the internet has not really closed the distance of time. monetary considerations of the basically state dominated bbc pop music industry still impinge on many things.
 
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