sadmanbarty

Well-known member
I’m not posting this to rehash old arguments (so please don’t). I completely appreciate people have different perspectives on things, so I don’t think anyone’s done anything wrong, but I hope it does illustrate a point:

“This is one of the things Ballard got right. We are all aware our feet have never touched the ground. We are desperate for disaster. We are hungry for The Real. We are not content with global warming, we have to accelerate it. There is no way out of this logiv. We all know our secret desires. We want to turn the world upside down. The protagonist in any Ballard novel only comes alive once the worst has happened. We want it. We need it. The vultures waiting on the street lights and telephone wires.

Not just droid. Droid most obviously but all of us.

As I say this tendency is seen most clearly in droid (which is why he reacts most vociferously) but it's present in all of us. Cheering on the apocalypse.

Of course this tendency co-exists with dismay, horror, fear but even the ability to feel fear is something we have been estranged from and welcome.

(In response to Droid) The more you thrash and flail the more you reinforce what I'm saying.

I keep saying this isn't about you droid! What I'm saying is obvious and uncontroversial”


“What you and other posters have done here, and indeed what Barty has done in the first post by quoting CAMERA propaganda to attack Corbyn is casually conflate the actions of a ruthless and influential global power with the Jewish people themselves, an act of antisemitism in itself. Apart from the dodgy title, this thread is a car wreck marked primarily by the catastrophic ignorance of many of the contributions.”


I appreciate other people might feel differently from me, but as I see it the tone of the first set of quotes is light-hearted and playful whereas the second quote seems to be intended seriously, it’s condescending and vexed.

In terms of content I think saying “oh come off it, you’d love it if it all went a bit Mad Max” to an environmentalist isn’t as severe as accusing people of anti-Semitism and saying they’re ignorant (in the presence of a Jewish poster who’d expressed concern about Corbyn and anti-Semitism as it happens).

The first set of quotes was condemned to some extent by about 7 users. The 2nd – arguably more objectionable- quote wasn’t called into question by anybody (not that I think it should be).

This is absolutely not me being passive aggressive or wanting to give the poster of the 2nd quote a bollocking. Both quotes are 100% fine; there’s no malice in either of them or anything that I’d take umbrage with.

What I would say is that it shows there are some users whose posts are seen in the worst possible light and as such elicit far harsher reactions than posts by other users.

It’d be nice if those users received the same benefit of the doubt that everyone else gets. There’d be less spats if people assumed that nobody means to upset anyone, that nobody’s out to genuinely imply something awful about another poster, that people might not realise they’ve crossed some line (or actually they haven’t crossed any line at all), there’s not some convoluted hidden meaning in what they’re saying, etc.

I’m a bit sensitive and don’t like negativity in general. Moreover I’m more trepidatious about posting if I’m worried that some seemingly innocuous conversation I’m party to is suddenly viewed as some grave offence and I’m then berated by a hoard of users who refuse to acknowledge my perspective on things.

Let’s just assume we’re all nice, decent blokes (and non-blokes) who like talking about jungle and hopefully end the boom and bust cycle of the forum.
 

Leo

Well-known member
haven't been on all day, so not sure if I've missed something in particular that prompted this thread. I always appreciate your concern for the well being of the board, barty, and it's not the first time you've made such an effort to keep things on track and moving forward. and yeah, everyone should get the same benefit of the doubt.

I will say that most worthwhile ventures work in boom and bust cycles, the highs are great and in a way appreciated because to the periodic lows. passion makes things volatile. also, sometimes someone will just be a shitty mood due to work or family issues and be (too) easily annoyed by what's said.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
i thankfully didn’t look at dissensus yesterday, so didn’t see all this bickering. i haven’t read it all now either and i really don’t fancy doing so, so sorry if i’m addressing something that’s been put to bed.

but anyway...

me- firstly, sorry for being rude to people the other day. also sorry if my jokes come across as unpleasant. i’ve explained before that i’ve grown up in a culture where people’s racial, religious, sexual differences, etc. have been dealt with with lots of jokes and light-hearted familiarity rather than with stoicism. for example my mum worked at vidal sassoon when i was little so all her mates were gay hair dressers. from a very young age i was introduced to people as “up the ass tim”, “big gay mark" and things like that. i grew up in an environment where you’d have my mum and loads of gay blokes drunk making- on paper- outrageously homophobic jokes. so again, however people may feel about it, it is in the end a temperamental difference rather than a moral one. in my experience the most well-integrated social environments i’ve encountered are ones that are full of naughty jokes; it’s a social lubricant (if you’ll excuse the sexual connotations). but i appreciate that’s quite specific to my life experience and other people might not feel the same, so sorry if it comes across as exclusionary or mean-spirited.

john eden- as i’ve said before, something very wonderful has happened to you recently and the contributions of yours that i did see from yesterday are testament to that.

luke- that time you went after thirdform really upset everyone, including me. obviously it’s a bit annoying having everyone finger wagging at you (especially given that you and third have probably discussed it all and made amends that none us are privy to, let alone the fact that the outrage is probably incredibly condescending to third), but until that’s somehow rectified in the eyes of dissensus as a whole, that’s going to be an underlying issue with you i'd imagine. or if you want to be more cynical, it's a stick that people can keep beating you with. for what it’s worth when users have talked about you being a bully or being unkind, i haven’t seen any of that (outside the context of fights where people are doing the same to you). i see a lot of playfulness, but not bullying or genuine nastiness. you do to me the same things that you do that upsets other people (you repeatedly said i was pro-“granny dying” on the cornonva thread) and i never find it insulting or upsetting. so i understand where you’re coming from and where people are getting the wrong end of the stick.

baboon- first off, obviously i don’t want you to leave dissensus. i too get really, really frustrated with the people on the board and how they’re behaving, so i do sympathise with the thing of going, fuck it their all unpleasant cunts. but ultimately it’d be nice for you to hang around. as i said in private i do think your behaviour the other day was out of order. your opening gambit in the discussion was accusing people of saying something unpleasant that they didn’t say and in the several instances where that was pointed out you didn’t correct that. you then went on to accuse people of a whole host of truly unpleasant things without any evidence. when i tried to be civil with you i was met with insults and aggression (i didn’t read it in context just now, but did skim something where you seemingly bought up my dad yesterday. maybe it’s not so bad in context, but i could imagine that being a bit much and unnecessary). as we’ve discussed in private i don’t really see how all that doesn’t warrant an apology, but you’ve made your thoughts on that known to me over pm. so that is what it is. we’ve discussed it and though we didn’t agree i’d be more than happy to move on without me and you having any issues.

droid- obviously i like you a lot droid, so any issues i have with you are pretty minor compared with my relationship with you as a whole. i’m more and more realising that where i think people have a problem with me, it’s actually more that i (rightfully in my opinion) defend luke and get caught in the crossfire, rather than people actually having a real issue with me. however i would say that maybe there are things that you don’t like me and luke doing which is fine, but you sometimes perceive them as moral transgressions when in fact they’re just temperamental differences; what you’ve referred to as “personalisation” in the past i’d say is one of those things. i do tend to find you’re not very comfortable with the idea of people having conflicting emotions or ideas about things; luke was attempting to discuss that in this thread before what he was saying got grossly caricatured and i’d say that similar instinct of yours explains why you were insulted on the willing for catastrophe thread for example. again, i’d say that it’s just a benign temperamental difference that occasionally you perceive as bullying or insulting.

patty- i saw some people saying they step in when luke’s being a bully or being unkind. it’d be nice if people did the same to patty. he’s been truly malicious and bellicose for months. imagine being me, logging into dissensus and having some bloke determined to be spiteful and unkind to you at every opportunity they can. performing any intellectual contortion necessary to try and find something rude or insulting in what you’re saying. it’s not fun. i’ve tried to ask him what the problem is repeatedly and he refuses to engage at all with it. to be incredibly blunt, i worry that patty you might be a little depressed or maybe have had some stuff bought up recently that hasn’t put you in the best frame of mind. again, i honestly don’t mean it in a rude way (i was a bit depressed in my late teens, so i’m not judging you) and it’s more than likely i’m completely off base with that, but if that does resonate with you patty have a think about addressing that and also how that might be affecting how you’re viewing the forum. i don’t say it lightly, but there has a been a huge character shift in you- at least from my perspective- recently where your whole outlook has done a complete 180; you’re a completely different person from the patty i used to know and get along well with. again, i’m completely out of my depth in saying all this, so do please ignore it if it’s complete bollocks. patty, i’m an excitable puppy. i just want to play and for everyone to have a nice time. if you can pull yourself out of thinking everything i do is some covert, passive aggressive conspiracy against you, you’ll feel a lot happier. maybe i’m just a nice bloke who happens to like naughty jokes.


more generally there are temperamental differences on the board people need to acknowledge are just differences that we’ll have to live with rather than kick up a fuss about. some people (they do tend to be newer users) love that it’s a fun community of friends who have lots of jokes and familiarity together, whereas some people prefer it a lot more sober and anonymous. nobody’s wrong, it’s just a difference. some people think that jokes are just flights of fantasy whereas others see them as reflecting something more than that. again, it is just a difference of opinion. some people don’t mind if luke playfully makes stuff up about them, whereas it upsets some people. that doesn’t mean he’s wrong, but it does mean that he needs reminding if he’s upset someone (as danny l did very gently on that thread about him).

i hope that’s all fairly reasonable. hopefully there can be some consensus found in that, or at least some understanding about some of our differences and how they’re not such a big deal. obviously i love the forum and everyone on it, so if you feel like i’ve given you a bit of bollocking, don’t take it too much to heart.
 

Leo

Well-known member
unofficial dad's perspective: we can disagree without being disagreeable.
 

droid

Well-known member
droid- obviously i like you a lot droid, so any issues i have with you are pretty minor compared with my relationship with you as a whole. i’m more and more realising that where i think people have a problem with me, it’s actually more that i (rightfully in my opinion) defend luke and get caught in the crossfire, rather than people actually having a real issue with me. however i would say that maybe there are things that you don’t like me and luke doing which is fine, but you sometimes perceive them as moral transgressions when in fact they’re just temperamental differences; what you’ve referred to as “personalisation” in the past i’d say is one of those things. i do tend to find you’re not very comfortable with the idea of people having conflicting emotions or ideas about things; luke was attempting to discuss that in this thread before what he was saying got grossly caricatured and i’d say that similar instinct of yours explains why you were insulted on the willing for catastrophe thread for example. again, i’d say that it’s just a benign temperamental difference that occasionally you perceive as bullying or insulting.

You probably should read through that thread, but Ill reiterate here.

I only fight with Luka for two reasons.

1) He calls me out.
2) He bullies other people, treats them like shit and tells them to leave the forum.

Both of these are reactions to his, frankly appalling, behaviour.

It's that simple. When I gave out to you and Luka a few years ago, its because I felt you were repeatedly calling my name inappropriately. When I lost the rag at Luka over his catastrophe thread its because he pointedly called me out, even after I emailed and asked him to stop. Conflicts since then have been around Luka treating others badly, crossing lines and IMO damaging the community.

Something else:

This is a community with real living people who have feelings and thoughts and desires of their own. They are not simply components who impede or contribute to a project, to be managed and then disposed off on a whim or when their usefulness ends.

I think you used to understand this, and in fact any kind of group work depends on a healthy and functioning community. Let go of that megalomaniacal urge to control and you might be surprised at what happens.

There comes a point where curation must turn to facilitation if things are going to advance. Ive commented before that this managerial obsession can end up creating a stifling atmosphere. Marking everyone's progress rating people's contributions etc... useful for galvanising people, but only up to a point.

I think you're way off the mark with Baboon and Patty, and your summaries come off as pretty condescending TBH. Patty needs to learn to let go of grudges, but as I said, he has been OTM when it comes to a lot of the personal dynamics here, and a younger me probably would have reacted in a similar way to some of the treatment he's recieved. Disavowal of, or refusal to acknowledge reasonable grievances is a big factor in these extended conflicts.

And finally:

Originally Posted by droid
Ive tried. Ive articulated my concerns multiple times. Im only putting the effort in because I give a shit. All Luka has to do is moderate his behaviour slightly and treat people with the same respect he would expect from others.

Its not a radical idea, it shouldn't be a big deal, and I fear that gone unchallenged, this behaviour will continue to escalate and that he will ultimately lose something that's very dear to him.

I don't have a problem with you, or Luke or anyone else here. Only some very specific behaviours which seem to cause a lot of strife, and I think it would be nice if they could stop.
 

droid

Well-known member
And lol at the first post here. I think I ignored it at the time, but it is a totally passive aggressive attempt to rehash old arguments. Jesus.

It comes across as very disingenuous to call for everyone to get along, be nice and assume the best of people when simultaneously doing this kinda shit.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
the predictable heartfelt apology not apology. noble of you, baty. maybe you don't realise, but this comes across pretty much the same way luka's attempts to rationalize everything did yesterday. much more nimble and graceful of course (you're good at that,) but the truth glares out from between the lines. reality check: you need to check your ego as much as he does. the two of you together caused the recent rifts on here. you're the pair at the back of the class who make everyone laugh but can't help but go too far. you're smart enough to keep your hands cleaner than luka, but it's visible to anyone with 20/20.

as for me and you getting on in the past. i don't think we've ever exchanged anything more than rudimentary pleasantries. i've never been particularly drawn to engage with you, and something tells me the feeling is mutual. something i'm totally fine with. but let me just say this, it does go noticed when you start a thread about deep house, a genre i've been consistently vocal about how much i love, and then after i've taken time to put together a bunch of posts you don't even bother to reply, but you do manage to say in another thread that deep house makes you 'feel like hanging yourself.' it's not the first time something like that has happened either. luka made a thread about doing that kind of thing for fun, and it's something i see the two of you get a huge kick out of. and i guess that's pretty much what the backlash against the both of you boils down to, you're always punching down. it's weak. it smacks of desperation and insecurity. so please, don't lecture me on my state of mind. any perception of change you've noted is pretty much a reaction to the thing i can't stand the most: phoney people.
 

luka

Well-known member
That's thoughtful and considered and sincere Barty so it will get ignored

For my part i don't have the slightest interest in 'fixing' anything.mwe have tried to have a centrist triangulating dissensus where we bend over backwards to accomodatE the sensitivities of others and it hasn't worked so I am in favour of a factionalised and cut throat dissensus in which these differences are the basis for perpetual warfare. That is how politics works and I think that should be our model.
 

luka

Well-known member
From this point onward I will make no effort to moderate my behaviour for the benefit of others. If they don't like it, it's their problem.
 

luka

Well-known member
That is not to say that I will set out to upset people or to be hostile to people. Far from from it. I have no desire to do that. It's just I will not moderate my behaviour or my ideas. Simple as that. Like it or lump it.
 

luka

Well-known member
I think, ultimately, that is much healthier than what we have at present which is all simmering resentment and sniping
 

luka

Well-known member
I've blocked droid and patty and I suggest you do the same. You will never get anything positive or conciliatory out of them.
 

droid

Well-known member
Mark my words.

Its not a radical idea, it shouldn't be a big deal, and I fear that gone unchallenged, this behaviour will continue to escalate and that he will ultimately lose something that's very dear to him.
 

luka

Well-known member
Feeling very positive about this. It will allow everyone to flourish. Again, I have no intention of picking fights. But it's a way to say, let's take the brakes off.
 

luka

Well-known member
I invented centrist dissensus while I was feeling soppy on the drug ecstasy. I decided to to pretend any bad feeling had all been my fault thus taking on the sins of the world and redeeming it. The lead up to that moment had been full of vicious warfare and trench fighting.
 

luka

Well-known member
And I don't regret the experiment in the slightest. It was a lot of hard work, herding cats stuff, but I learned a lot from it in terms of what is required to keep a whole classroom engaged and moderately well behaved (lots of flattery and individual attention basically)
 

luka

Well-known member
But third form made that model pretty much impossible and that I found increasingly frustrating. Again, that's just who he is, I don't blame him, but the end result was that the classroom order broke down.
 
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