IdleRich

IdleRich
Basically no-one cares about a lot of things which used to be important and ought to be still. Everyone knew that BJ is a lying racist - a lot of people knew there is some dodgy stuff going on with Russia. Labour and Guardian etc kept raising this stuff but the issue wasn't getting people to know it, it was getting them to give a shit.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

Yeah I saw this earlier today on FB.

Since Brexit is the issue of the day, I'm not sure people's views of the leadership can neatly be disentangled from 'their stance on Brexit', when where each of the leaders stands on Brexit is such a huge part of whether they're liked or disliked.

The data below came from a survey of people who'd initially supported Corbyn but had gone off him:

brexit_corbyn.jpg
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Also, notice that "he is indecisive" is the second-most cited reason. Again, impossible to distinguish that from Brexit when Brexit is one of the main things he's been indecisive about.
 

droid

Well-known member
I always thought it was a mistake to agree to this election. I know that just sitting there doing nothing with a totally dysfunctional parliament was hardly a long term strategy but it seemed preferable to this.

Just remember why it happened. Labour were opposed and the Lib Dems and the SNP forced them to accept it. But no, its all the fault of a radical manifesto with popular policies, not the arrogance of centrists.

Corbyn failed in many ways, but he was right about Brexit.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Just remember why it happened. Labour were opposed and the Lib Dems and the SNP forced them to accept it. But no, its all the fault of a radical manifesto with popular policies, not the arrogance of centrists.
Yeah I think Labour kinda had to agree once the LDs said they would support it cos that already constitute a majority. The thing to me is that at one point there were the numbers to add amendments etc and then vote them through, the opposition coalition thing had bigger numbers than the party who were ostensibly in power. At that point they could have put their differences aside and formed a unity government or whatever but Swinson refused to countenance Corbyn as leader and Corbyn refused to countenance anyone else... it only needed one of them to do the right thing but it never really looked like happening. And here we are.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
And back to the thread question. There is nowhere to go now, it's done. Tories in power for minimum five years, more if they can change the boundaries and make it harder for people to vote, Brexit is guaranteed, Scotland is likely to demand to leave... I don't think there is any mechanism to even begin to resist all this in any worthwhile way.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Scotland would be the same anyway. Corbyn baked into his offer a Second Referendum. So, it would have just happened faster. The idea that the SNP would have dropped their demand for independence had an EU-sceptic Labour government formed is crazy. The entire SNP strategy is to win a referendum to be an independent country, the rest is tactics.
 

sufi

lala
i actually had a chat with my mp today, he successfully defended his seat
i was walking past the constituency office and peeked thru the window and could see him sitting apparently alone with the lights off, i barged in, he seemed fairly shell shocked
glad he got through
 

sufi

lala
the way forward has nothing to do with parliament, craner, there are social forces at work that undercut all this imho
 

sufi

lala
this performance is like a rearguard action by the ancien regime in the face of overwhelming social disdain and revulsion
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well, I don't really see Scotland leaving as a bad thing, certainly I don't blame them. I just mean it looks as though it will happen... or maybe we will end up with some situation like in Catalonia where they hold a referendum deemed illegitimate by the UK government and there is major civil unrest.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Well that's OK, but those who go the extra-parliamentary route should at least be honest about it when they are getting worked up about the prorogation for example. That's why I posted that New Socialist Class War Corbynism essay the other day, because it revealed the reality of their agenda.

I don't blame them for it, but it only demonstrated the fact the they had no lineage in the Labour Party, their co-option of 1945, Clem and even Bevan was false and ahistorical, and they could have at least said so.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
And with Scotland, yes same. Three elections on the go, if they want to leave, maybe it is time.

I despise nationalism, not sure it will work out how they think. Like I have always said too, the idea that an independent Scotland would be a left wing dream is hilarious: Scotland has a very conservative rump, nationalist or not. The union was also based on a Scottish enthusiasm for the economic and military benefits of the British Empire.
 

droid

Well-known member
Climate is gonna fuck everything up very soon and these guys wont be able to keep a lid on the social consequences. If there's one grim glimmer of satisfaction its that at least some of these fuckers and the coalition of business and billionaires that support them will end up hanging from lamposts. As for the murderous gerontocracy that consistently votes to burn the future - they'll be the first to go when society disintegrates.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
But just because I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland tried to force through independence doesn't mean that I can't criticise poroguation, gerrymandering, lying etc I'm not endorsing any kind of anti-democratic move, it's just a vague prediction that is loosely tied up with my wider prediction that everything is fucked now. Basically the thing I care most about is stopping Brexit and that's done and dusted - even though more votes were cast for anti-Brexit parties apparently, the Tories are already saying this election delivers a clear mandate for Brexit. Now that's why an election is no substitute for a referendum in terms of sorting out that single matter (in the Euro elections the Tories claimed the results meant that people wanted to get on with brexit while Labour and others claimed the opposite). Referenda have the advantage of clarity at least. Anyway, whatever, the Tories are in power, have a large enough majority to do what they want and they are gonna force through Johnson's crappy deal so they claim it's done when really all that will have been done is the damage, the (all but) irrefutable step of leaving. After that they will try and keep the ongoing negotiations out of the news and play them down as much as possible. But our rights WILL be diminished and our economy and our future potential etc.
 
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