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Thread: Simon Reynolds K-Punk Memorial Lecture

  1. #31
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    ok i've found some bits - turns out there's alot about shouting as well, i'll make a new thread

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by whisperingdave View Post
    Shout in black pop music can certainly be linked to free jazz (think Abbey Lincoln on Freedom Now Suite + Coltrane's saxophone runs + James Brown even calls on Robert McCullogh to "give me some Trane brother!" in the middle of Superbad). But don't think its a borrowing, more part of a continuum, a set of borrowings/adaptations/resonances. Also the shout in black pop (and therefore its transfer into 60s pop music more broadly) is more complicated than "cry of freedom". It's also a register of something like pain or at least a history of negation.

    Which is why I think Acid Communism needs some work, or I'm not all that comfortable with it. If Sly and The Family Stone are seen as key figures in making of AC, then also need to recognise how much that sound (and those that precede/follow it - Hendrix/P-Funk) also grappling with/modulating a set of almost totalising social restrictions (ie being black - historical experiences of racism as debilitation). The weirdness/looseness/joy/funkiness of Sly Stone is all bound up with that, and therefore the account of freedom is also much more complicated than something like a default sense of liberation.

    Could kinda sum it up as between the following positions/statements: Bob Marley's "when music hits you you feel no pain" + Wadada Leo Smith's "It hurts to play this music".
    all this stuff about the Shout and loudness is just something (a personal and recent obsession) i've glommed onto Acid Communism - Mark doesn't mention it as i recall. the main focus of that intro chapter - all that he finished - is The Temptations's "Psychedelic Shack", but he also mentions Sly and the Family, Beatles, and various other things.

    so it's not an integral concept that needs to be reconciled with any specific ideology

    but yeah of course the passage of certain modalities of expression, etc from black practitioners to white changes them

    the paradigm of that is the transfer of "I'm a Man" in Muddy Waters et al to performers like The Animals, Them - the racial element of defiance gets lost, and it becomes something else -

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by whisperingdave View Post
    Shout in black pop music can certainly be linked to free jazz (think Abbey Lincoln on Freedom Now Suite + Coltrane's saxophone runs + James Brown even calls on Robert McCullogh to "give me some Trane brother!" in the middle of Superbad). But don't think its a borrowing, more part of a continuum, a set of borrowings/adaptations/resonances. Also the shout in black pop (and therefore its transfer into 60s pop music more broadly) is more complicated than "cry of freedom". It's also a register of something like pain or at least a history of negation.

    Which is why I think Acid Communism needs some work, or I'm not all that comfortable with it. If Sly and The Family Stone are seen as key figures in making of AC, then also need to recognise how much that sound (and those that precede/follow it - Hendrix/P-Funk) also grappling with/modulating a set of almost totalising social restrictions (ie being black - historical experiences of racism as debilitation). The weirdness/looseness/joy/funkiness of Sly Stone is all bound up with that, and therefore the account of freedom is also much more complicated than something like a default sense of liberation.

    Could kinda sum it up as between the following positions/statements: Bob Marley's "when music hits you you feel no pain" + Wadada Leo Smith's "It hurts to play this music".
    Most Sly stuff before There’s a Riot is so up full,affirmative, unifying, come together in vibe - that the element of pain etc that you are talking about, correctly, as being inseparable from the liberation - it can be hard to hear

    But then on Stand! - in amidst the celebration and acceptance of all those songs like “everyday people” there is “Don’t call me nigger, whitey”. And there you can hear centuries of it, alchemized in the most extraordinary way so that it sounds like triumph and agony at the same time. And it goes on and on and on, this almost unendurable ecstasy

    One of those songs where you just can’t believe music like this can exist
    Last edited by blissblogger; 20-01-2020 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    Its the whole point and it's absolutely vital. It's such such powerful magic.
    come on Luke this is a southcoast happy hardcore opinion, not a stratford one.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by craner View Post
    Did you try Ludwig von Mises?
    yup. like many anti-marxists treats marx as an economist, not an anti-philosopher.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    This may be true but the point is the "temporary" surely? I think you can absolutely make a case that the free spaces found in raves, squats, even therapy encounter groups are autonomous zones where different rules come into play even if it's only for a few hours. That's the point.
    nah.

    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  7. #37
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    fuck raves. they were just corporate events playing the same 20 anthems for 8 hours on loop. it's all about smoking crack in a tower bloc flat broadcasting on pirate radio playing music to give people nightmares. nothing autonomous about that, it is extremely disciplined and cloak and dagger. the more communal the studio is, the more likely it is to be busted by police. if you don't wanna get caught (and some pirates did this) you'd leave a vhs cassette running with an empty studio.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  8. #38
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    I know what acid communism is and I know how k-punk would have conceived it. and I'm saying being afraid of people perpetuates the current categories of authoritarian society, even if ideologically conceived as a TAZ. therapists and cops share this thing in common. they are terrified of seeing their primitive double in the mirror. If I wasn't locked up by mental health cops when I was going through a schizophrenic episode I would have probably coaxed this out of Mark.

    That's why I like music like early chicago acid, dark jungle and speedcore. it takes a mirror to society, shows us all the rave dreams never were, not that they are over. liberation comes from the daily social relations we perpetuate in our lives, not a pleasure prison time set aside for capital to reduce us to the idle spectator. noone goes on strike to go to a rave, and that should say miles.
    Last edited by thirdform; 20-01-2020 at 06:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    come on Luke this is a southcoast happy hardcore opinion, not a stratford one.
    I'll explain it to you when I get a chance. Bit tied up at the moment.

  11. #40
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    The enclosed space, like the magicianís circle, is a given. Within the circle the magician is protected. The demon is safely contained. The therapistís room, like the magicianís circle is a special kind of space. The rules are suspended. Reality is more malleable there, and experiments can be made in relative safety. Old habits are sloughed off, new selves are tried on for size, like costumes plucked from the dressing up box.

    This is the frame. The bubble. It is unimportant whether the frame is formally demarcated but it is must be there, at least implicitly. By sealing off the outside world, what is formed is analogous to the bubble universes of speculative physics. Ideally, what happens in the bubble universe allows the client to be stronger, wiser, kinder and more contented on returning to the wider world.

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  13. #41
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    people always say ideally with therapy but never most probably. and in that sense it reminds me of the orthodox textual religious person. ideally our society should look like so-and-so. or even the Stalinist, for that matter. ideally. but what about 'really?' I've had therapy on and off since the age of 12, granted fairly basic nhs shit but if we're talking about mass liberation then we have to grapple with the fact that not everyone is going to get top draw Reichian group therapy.

    reminds me of this datacide review of DiJ

    There is a notion that explains a great deal not only about punk rock in general and Crisis in particular, but also the subsequent evolution of both Pearce and Wakeford. – and that is a hankering after “authenticity”. The motive force in everything Pearce and Wakeford have done as “adults” is not politics but aesthetics. It was an aesthetic desire for “authenticity” that led them to join Trotskyist groups despite the fact that they were dandies. Pearce, in particular, has always behaved as though it is possible to live differently in this world – a prima donna act in which he pretends to have risen above capitalism while the commodity economy is still intact – and all of anarchism is evident in this aesthetic pose. Aesthetically (and therefore politically) Crisis were much closer to anarchist noise merchants such as Crass than later “Trotskyist” bands from the Redskins to Blaggers ITA (whose bolshevism was an outgrowth of Bakuninism, whereas both Pearce and the Crass are much closer to the anarchism of Proudhon). Crisis wanted to be “real” and utilised politics as a short cut to realising what is ultimately an aesthetic position. In chasing the chimera of personal authenticity rather than the reality of revolutionary transformation, Pearce and Wakeford came to believe their political posturing was sincere. This fanatical but nonetheless deluded self-belief in a political mission was the basis on which Crisis sold themselves to their fans (some of whom were actually attracted by the hilarious gap between what Pearce and Wakeford believed about themselves and what they actually represented). Given the inability of the aesthetically driven Crisis to deliver on what they’d declared as their political positions, it is hardly surprising that the dominant members of the band ended up breaking with RAR and ultimately conventional Trotskyism.

    While there are commentators who have become hysterical about Pearce, the best way of dealing with his scam is to expose him for what he is – an anarchist dry goods salesman.
    There is a continuity between Crisis and DIJ in terms of both imagery centred on fascism/anti-fascism and a desire for authenticity that is aesthetically driven. It is difficult to imagine Crisis ever making much of an impression without RAR to mediate their presence on the punk scene, or DIJ existing at all without Wakeford and Pearce being slowly seduced by the ideas and imagery RAR set out to oppose (a seduction that began with these two musicians learning the power of political symbolism – at least partially – through their involvement with RAR). I would stress symbols and imagery in all this, both Crisis and DIJ were aesthetically overloaded to the detriment of both their politics and their music. Although very much a product of RAR, Crisis were also in many ways an anomaly – within a punk culture that thrived on confusion about identity and political belief, Crisis were far more confused than most of their peers. The Art Attacks appear to have been unmoved by their brush with RAR, Adam and the Ants merely ruffled. In contrast to this, Wakeford and Pearce provide examples of “individuals” who were transformed by RAR, but their deep involvement produced effects at odds with the avowed intentions of those who’d set up the organisation.
    https://datacide-magazine.com/we-mean-it-man/
    Last edited by thirdform; 20-01-2020 at 07:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  14. #42
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    like i wouldn't argue my aesthetics are political, or can be used to analyse politics, but they reflect my personal political beliefs. someone else could find subversion in lonnie liston smith, and Grover Washington jr, in fact many people did in the 90s.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

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  16. #43
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    I think the subversion personally is much more oblique, much more dispersed and much more long duration. for instance i would say hardcore/jungle/acid/80s hh/disco etc changed me, but not in this sense of a 6 hour zone of liberation. that never happened and is unlikely to happen unless it was 100% certain one would not go broke or be cornered by cops or bouncers, etc etc. But it's rewired my brain in terms of thinking about gender, the cosmos, religion, science, relations of sound to each other, language etc etc. It's much more subtle than attaching a clunky name to it like temporary autonomous zone. ultimately the only thing you can systematise in music its formal structure but not how it disperses through the physical constraints of time and space. obviously these sense perception through computerised technology can become much more intense and rapid.
    Last edited by thirdform; 20-01-2020 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

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  18. #44
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    Hey Thirdform.

    Shut the fuck up you annoying cunt.

  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Hey Thirdform.

    Shut the fuck up you annoying cunt.
    oh shit. watch out third, this time you've really pissed off the wrong guy!

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