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Thread: Brexit Day

  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    He's just winding you up there... that's pretty much what I said and it's all completely correct and mostly inarguable.
    Lol I know. I agree that I said little that hadn't already kind of been said but I'm arrogant enough to believe that my presentation of the basic case was a little bit clearer. Like I can see why he thought John Eden had the better of the debate, but I don't think 'oh well 'Remainers' could have forced a soft Brexit which I admit may not have held up but we'll never know for sure so fuck you' is actually quite as good an argument as it appears.

    Remainers are mostly self-interested - losing the right to live and work in the EU isn't a big loss for the majority of the population I accept, but it is a big loss of theoretical potential for some, and a big loss of actual potential for others. I face a waiting game to see what, if anything, will emerge in terms of my ongoing rights - but contract jobs are now firmly requesting an EU passport and that's a big loss for me. I have met a woman I'm really into so maybe I can marry my way back in.

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  3. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by comelately View Post
    Remainers are mostly self-interested - losing the right to live and work in the EU isn't a big loss for the majority of the population I accept, but it is a big loss of theoretical potential for some, and a big loss of actual potential for others.
    This is a huge part of the whole issue, and I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually the core of it. Brexit looks, to me, increasingly like an exercise in schadenfreude. People who haven't been affected one way or another by freedom of movement are dead against it purely because it benefits people on the opposite side of the cultural divide. Harming the opportunities of others to study and work in the EU - "triggering Remoaners" - is an end in itself.

    Now there is perhaps an argument to be made for people who have a legitimate complaint about wage deflation due to mass immigration, but from what I've read, that only happens to people who are in the bottom income decile anyway. And contrary to the widespread idea that Brexit is some wail of despair and rage from the "left-behind", a myth recycled by Eden in this very thread, it's people on middle incomes, not the very poor, who are most in favour of it. In fact most of them are either retired or close to retirement, so either way, they're certainly not manual labourers competing for work with 20-year-olds from Poland and Lithuania.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 14-02-2020 at 01:15 PM.
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  5. #408
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    Now they've admitted that frictionless trade was never on the cards it seems that more and more of the "we knew what we were voting for" argument has gone... the two positions are really "I voted for something I didn't get" or "I just voted to Leave and I don't give a shit about the details" - I don't think there is any longer any credible argument to be made saying "Oh yeah, I really thought about it and weighed up all the pros and cons and voted thoughtfully and intelligently for exactly what we're getting" - or at least, only if you are some kind of prophet who knew exactly what was a lie and what was going to be delivered and what couldn't.

  6. #409
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    I think really that's been the case for a long time but it becomes more clear cut each day.

  7. #410
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    Honda in Swindon (my birth place) is definitely closing next year taking 3,500 jobs. Officially it's due to "Global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles." but all the leaks are saying it's Brexit.

  8. #411
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    Yep. And other big car manufacturers that are either closing factories or not going ahead with planned ones have explicitly blamed Brexit.
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
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  9. #412
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    It's like the government read their conditions for staying in the UK and did the opposite.

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  10. #413
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    But of course, everyone knew what they were voting for, and if you disagree then you're a smug metropolitan FBPE neoliberal and part of the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
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  11. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    But of course, everyone knew what they were voting for, and if you disagree then you're a smug metropolitan FBPE neoliberal and part of the problem.

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  12. #415
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    Nobody knew what they were voting for. Nobody ever does. Do you think we spend hours researching? We just go with the tribe. What's interesting nowadays is that the old tribal allegiances are breaking down. But the idea that anyone knew what they were voting for, stay or go, university educated or left school at 16, is absurd.

  13. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    Nobody knew what they were voting for. Nobody ever does. Do you think we spend hours researching? We just go with the tribe. What's interesting nowadays is that the old tribal allegiances are breaking down. But the idea that anyone knew what they were voting for, stay or go, university educated or left school at 16, is absurd.
    Well obviously most people don't have a masters degree in political science, and I certainly don't, but when the government went from saying "We'll definitely stay in the customs union" in 2016, to saying "Actually we're going to leave the customs union but we'll have loads of other good trade deals instead so it'll be OK, promise" in 2018, so saying "We'll trade with the EU in the same way Australia does (i.e. with no trade deal at all)" now, I don't think you need to be the sort of person who reads the FT every day to realise that a pretty major bait-and-switch operation has taken place.
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  14. #417
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    But most people didn't give a shit about the details. They wanted to leave the EU come what may. That's what they voted for. Leave the EU. Not this boring detail that you think should have mattered to them.

  15. #418
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    So you say.

  16. #419
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    They can regret it later and you can gloat.

  17. #420
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    My point is that you are asserting something fairly vague without any real evidence to back it up.

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