Brexit Day

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

Mr. Tea said:
Ha. Thought you might say that.

Well I feel we have done this one.

But for the record it is important that leavers, remainers and everyone unite to fight the vicious attacks on our standard of living that will be attempted by our rulers in the wake of Brexit and the pandemic on top of climate change and the slow decline of the capitalist mode of production.

As usual there will be attempts to split people along various cultural and ethnic lines to stop a united defence against these attacks.

One of these will be leave/remain. So people can choose to keep arguing about that, a battle which has already been decided. Or they can fight the new battle. But not both if they want to be effective.

IdleRich · Dec 19, 2020

That does sound a bit like "don't mention our enormous fuck up, anyway let's fight this terrible thing that inexplicably occurred together mates".

version · Dec 19, 2020

Yeah, I get John's point but I'm not entirely convinced by it. How do you fight a battle alongside a bunch of people who either don't realise they're in a battle or think you're the enemy? Also how do things ever improve if there are no consequences for fucking them up? If the people who voted for Brexit are allowed to shirk all responsibility and pretend they never supported it, what's to stop them throwing their support behind the next con?

IdleRich · Dec 19, 2020

But for the record it is important that leavers, remainers and everyone unite to fight the vicious attacks on our standard of living that will be attempted by our rulers in the wake of Brexit

I find this slightly disingenuous cos there is an inevitable decline in standards of living precisely because of brexit. I mean probably the Tories are gonna try it push it further and blame brexit and it is important to push back against that... but any analysis that doesn't recognise that some decline has already been caused by previous actions is automatically flawed from the start.

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

Well then we will need to answer these questions:

1. Is Brexit going to be reversed any time soon?
2. If yes, please explain how?
3. If no, what is to be gained from discussing the merits of remain/leave except moral smugness that reignites the whole toxic conversation and distracts us from the task at hand?

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Yeah, I get John's point but I'm not entirely convinced by it. How do you fight a battle alongside a bunch of people who either don't realise they're in a battle or think you're the enemy? Also how do things ever improve if there are no consequences for fucking them up? If the people who voted for Brexit are allowed to shirk all responsibility and pretend they never supported it, what's to stop them throwing their support behind the next con?

Well some people felt that Brexit would make their lives better. So they want their lives to be better. This means they can be engaged in conversations about opposing political actions (for example austerity) that will make their lives worse.

This will be less effective if it is delivered with finger wagging about how we would not be in this mess in the first place if thickos had not voted for Brexit.

The way to stop people falling for the next con is to build solidarity and networks of resistance. Not issuing dunces caps.

version · Dec 19, 2020

john eden said:
3. If no, what is to be gained from discussing the merits of remain/leave except except moral smugness that reignites the whole toxic conversation and distracts us from the task at hand?

Taking control of the narrative so the right can't twist it like they did the financial crisis?

version · Dec 19, 2020

john eden said:
Well some people felt that Brexit would make their lives better. So they want their lives to be better. This means they can be engaged in conversations about opposing political actions (for example austerity) that will make their lives worse.

This will be less effective if it is delivered with finger wagging about how we would not be in this mess in the first place if thickos had not voted for Brexit.

Is finger wagging about how we would not be in this mess in the first place if thickos had not voted for Brexit the only way it can be discussed? That sounds as much of a stereotype of remainers as "thicko" leavers.

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Taking control of the narrative so the right can't twist it like they did the financial crisis?

But as we have seen with other manifestations of the culture war the leave/remain binary very easily becomes the narrative.

version · Dec 19, 2020

Yeah, so surely it's imperative the ball isn't dropped and a solid narrative is established re: what leave is leading to and actually meant?

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Is finger wagging about how we would not be in this mess in the first place if thickos had not voted for Brexit the only way it can be discussed? That sounds as much of a stereotype of remainers as "thicko" leavers.

Well I am only going on what I have seen play out so far. If you know a reason why suddenly everything will become more nuanced and less polarised I would be interested in hearing about it.

version · Dec 19, 2020

I don't think they will, but I also don't see how you'll convince people to unite to fight an attack on living standards without first convincing them they are actually under attack and Brexit isn't doing what they thought it would.

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Yeah, so surely it's imperative the ball isn't dropped and a solid narrative is established re: what leave is leading to and actually meant?

No. Firstly because issues around Brexit will be complicated by COVID now. And secondly because the roots of the financial crisis weren’t much cop in defending us against austerity.

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
I don't think they will, but I also don't see how you'll convince people to unite to fight an attack on living standards without first convincing them they are actually under attack and Brexit isn't doing what they thought it would.

It will be simpler to convince them that they are under attack when there is brutal evidence of this happening yes.

IdleRich · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Taking control of the narrative so the right can't twist it like they did the financial crisis?

Yes, and also moral smugness is not to be sneered at.

IdleRich · Dec 19, 2020

john eden said:
Well then we will need to answer these questions:

1. Is Brexit going to be reversed any time soon?
2. If yes, please explain how?
3. If no, what is to be gained from discussing the merits of remain/leave except moral smugness that reignites the whole toxic conversation and distracts us from the task at hand?

It feels as though it could be delayed if we would have the balls to beg the EU and that in itself would probably save a few lives.

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

IdleRich said:
It feels as though it could be delayed if we would have the balls to beg the EU and that in itself would probably save a few lives.

I literally don’t understand how that would happen, Rich, but the floor is yours - what is the pathway to that happening between now and January?

version · Dec 19, 2020

john eden said:
It will be simpler to convince them that they are under attack when there is brutal evidence of this happening yes.

Has there not been enough evidence already? We've had ten years of this shit, five of Brexit. How much more evidence do they need?

john eden · Dec 19, 2020

version said:
Has there not been enough evidence already? We've had ten years of this shit, five of Brexit. How much more evidence do they need?

Well in fact it goes back to the 70s. So you can either give up on people or keep plugging away I guess. Obviously the first of those options is far easier.

IdleRich · Dec 19, 2020

john eden said:
I literally don’t understand how that would happen, Rich, but the floor is yours - what is the pathway to that happening between now and January?

I think if they threw themselves on the EU's mercy pleading special circumstances with Covid the EU - who have been extremely accommodating so far - would probably find a way to allow it even though it's supposed to be locked in at this point. But Johnson are co are terrified of showing weakness (though strangely don't mind at being weak) and they are very worried that any delay of brexit would raise the possibility that Brexit (their only "achievement") could be cancelled.

Brexit Day

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