Brexit Day
- Thread starter IdleRich
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- & met with rocco forte a licky boom boom down active rich but you said you’d use butter charge of the light brigade eden annihilating idle richie eden smashing mr teas face he'll be tired by sunrise john's audit long john eden love me dog love me wife luka is a genius not the brexit i voted for petty and spiteful sex arse tycoon testicle growth the day john eden went full ukip the key to your stupidity tomato shortage pizza you brexit you buy it
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Wild Horses
I think it's fair to say that Brexit has ended democracy as a romantic notion in the heart of many a Remainer. We see Barnier & Tusk, from a certain distance, and think that they appear to be a bit smarter, and level-headed, than the shower that passes for politicians on our side of the Channel...we wonder if vassalage wouldn't have been an improvement. We wonder if the European bureacracy might do a better job of running the country.
I mean seriously.......in the increasingly complex world we live in, how could you possibly think the British political culture could sustain the kind of thinking and action we need? It's not a sensible view. Okay, I get that one can question whether the European Union is really capable of that either, of course you could....but it does seem somewhat more capable. Whilst, yes, many a #FBPE type as developed a perhaps overly strong attachment to this particular policy issue, I don't think you get that many claiming that the EU is either perfect, or particularly reformable. Being 'Pro Europe' does imply more than thinking it's the best of two bad options, but it doesn't have to mean *that* much more.
Of course, we potentially have an one-party state and Cummings attempting to build his own system. So maybe it turned out ok lol.
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Wild Horses
Lol I know. I agree that I said little that hadn't already kind of been said but I'm arrogant enough to believe that my presentation of the basic case was a little bit clearer. Like I can see why he thought John Eden had the better of the debate, but I don't think 'oh well 'Remainers' could have forced a soft Brexit which I admit may not have held up but we'll never know for sure so fuck you' is actually quite as good an argument as it appears.
Remainers are mostly self-interested - losing the right to live and work in the EU isn't a big loss for the majority of the population I accept, but it is a big loss of theoretical potential for some, and a big loss of actual potential for others. I face a waiting game to see what, if anything, will emerge in terms of my ongoing rights - but contract jobs are now firmly requesting an EU passport and that's a big loss for me. I have met a woman I'm really into so maybe I can marry my way back in.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
This is a huge part of the whole issue, and I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually the core of it. Brexit looks, to me, increasingly like an exercise in schadenfreude. People who haven't been affected one way or another by freedom of movement are dead against it purely because it benefits people on the opposite side of the cultural divide. Harming the opportunities of others to study and work in the EU - "triggering Remoaners" - is an end in itself.
Now there is perhaps an argument to be made for people who have a legitimate complaint about wage deflation due to mass immigration, but from what I've read, that only happens to people who are in the bottom income decile anyway. And contrary to the widespread idea that Brexit is some wail of despair and rage from the "left-behind", a myth recycled by Eden in this very thread, it's people on middle incomes, not the very poor, who are most in favour of it. In fact most of them are either retired or close to retirement, so either way, they're certainly not manual labourers competing for work with 20-year-olds from Poland and Lithuania.
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IdleRich
IdleRich
Now they've admitted that frictionless trade was never on the cards it seems that more and more of the "we knew what we were voting for" argument has gone... the two positions are really "I voted for something I didn't get" or "I just voted to Leave and I don't give a shit about the details" - I don't think there is any longer any credible argument to be made saying "Oh yeah, I really thought about it and weighed up all the pros and cons and voted thoughtfully and intelligently for exactly what we're getting" - or at least, only if you are some kind of prophet who knew exactly what was a lie and what was going to be delivered and what couldn't.
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Wild Horses
luka
Well-known member
Nobody knew what they were voting for. Nobody ever does. Do you think we spend hours researching? We just go with the tribe. What's interesting nowadays is that the old tribal allegiances are breaking down. But the idea that anyone knew what they were voting for, stay or go, university educated or left school at 16, is absurd.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well obviously most people don't have a masters degree in political science, and I certainly don't, but when the government went from saying "We'll definitely stay in the customs union" in 2016, to saying "Actually we're going to leave the customs union but we'll have loads of other good trade deals instead so it'll be OK, promise" in 2018, so saying "We'll trade with the EU in the same way Australia does (i.e. with no trade deal at all)" now, I don't think you need to be the sort of person who reads the FT every day to realise that a pretty major bait-and-switch operation has taken place.
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Wild Horses
So you say.
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Wild Horses
My point is that you are asserting something fairly vague without any real evidence to back it up.