AIDS: conspiracy or reality?

mms

sometimes
bassnation said:
don't you mean astrology today? :)

astronomy today is a well-respected journal covering observable space phenomena.

funnily enough (and totally irrelevant to this debate), astrology and astronomy were once close bedfellows.

the sky at night! pure bunkum - patrick moore is a charlatan
yes i should stop rushing replies .. :)
 

mms

sometimes
confucius said:
My position on this is simply to follow the oldest and best rules of life that I know:

1. trust no one.

and

2. question everything.

the sentiments thus far expressed at the suggestion that the existence of AIDS is debatable, from surprise to disbelief to ridicule to anger, I have personally felt. Yet parts of what the conspiracy supporters say makes sense, and as incredible as it would be, I don't know if it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to carry out a hoax on such a global scale.

that's all.

this is a quick route to medically defined paranoia!
;)
 

stormdancer

New member
Not a biologist...but....

Many viruses work in specific ways to find a particular way of reproducing itself in the body.

I only have an small qualification in biology, but during my studies of blood and diseases of the blood, its fascinating and stange that the HIVirus SPECIFICALLY picks the section of the mRNA strain to do with immunity, and then reproduces itself....Almost as if it was 'programmed' to... if it was a simple virus, why not go for some other section to do with metabolism or something

I dont know many viruses that SPECIFICALLY choose where they reproduce, maybe a biology professor could enlighten me... :confused:
 

zhao

there are no accidents
thanks to Lanugo for posting this in another thread:


^^ what Dr. Luc Montagnier says here is completely in line with various things i have heard from AIDS sceptics who question the official story, as well as flat-out deniers who say the entire phenomenon is full of lies and largely a conspiracy:

• general health is more important to a person's well being than having or not having the virus.

• the drugs they sell (and make a LOT of money from) either help very little, do not help, or are actually harmful.

• there are a great number of people who are living extra-ordinarily healthy lives WITH the HIV virus, after switching to super conscious and healthy diets.

but of course when i brought them up in this thread with the admittedly over-sensationalist title, ideas like these were not only shot down by everyone on this forum, but used as an proof, by some, of my "kooky californian" loose screws. :rolleyes:
 
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mms

sometimes
i was speaking to a friend who's a doctor who's phd was based on working with people with hiv and aids in South Africa just last night, he now works at a hospital in london working with kind of worse case scenario people with hiv, alcoholics, drug addicts , ppl from the third world with t.b, people who don't have capacity as a result of brain diseases that have developed as a result of hiv, very difficult job, maybe i should tell him he's a massive sheep cos a guy read it on teh internets.
Aids and hiv are very real and medical people are trying to find anyway to make the people who suffer from it better.

However, Yes people who are healthy and have h.i.v. can lead reasonably healthy lives, usually with the use of antiretrovirals and other intensive therapies as well, well the people i know who have hiv anyway, and with minimised risks of infection etc, that's not really a revelation, lucky westerners eh?

As for the drugs are a conspiracy and harmful thing, why would they be a conspiracy or harmful?
We know that western pharma companies can be dodgy and that's why third and second world companies make their own
 
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lanugo

von Verfall erzittern
Special Report
End to AIDS Nearer Than We Think?
Re-appraising HIV in its 25th Anniversary Year
by Terry Michael

The 2008 Nobel Prize for medicine was awarded last Fall to French virologist Dr. Luc Montagnier [the guy from the video that zhao reposted in this thread], for discovering the “human immunodeficiency virus,” or HIV, a retrovirus most of the world believes causes the amorphous health condition known as AIDS. It was an interesting choice for the Swedish Nobel committee, perhaps even more politically motivated than was the Norwegian Nobel panel’s award of the Peace Prize to President Barack Obama this year.

For two decades now, Montagnier has been backing away from the American scientific orthodoxy that HIV, by itself, can impair or destroy cell-mediated immunity to disease. This discoverer of “the virus that causes AIDS” has clearly stated that he believes a healthy body can rid itself of the purportedly always pathogenic retrovirus, with no drugs or vaccines, in just weeks with natural anti-body immune response--an assertion antithetical to what is claimed by American AIDS researchers, who faithfully believe once you are infected with HIV, nothing can rid the body of it.

The HIV=AIDS orthodox belief community encompasses hundreds of thousands of institutions and individuals: professionals and bureaucrats, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and National Institutes of Health; academic researchers seeking tens of billions of dollars in government and private grants over the past 25 years; international charities, fronted by wealthy gay and gay-friendly celebrities like Elton John, Elizabeth Taylor and Kenneth Cole; physicians, hospitals and health clinics, which promote and provide HIV tests, prescribe drugs, and treat patients; and at least five thousand, and probably more than ten thousand well-funded, self-perpetuating local non-profits operating in almost every city and urban county, as well as many rural and suburban jurisdictions in America, like “Food and Friends” in Washington, DC, which in 2008 compensated its executive director $382,000. (In a front page story Sunday, October 18, 2009, The Washington Post reported widespread fraud in local District of Columbia government grants totaling $80 million to ninety non-profit AIDS “service” organizations from 2004 to 2008.)

Chief among the drug companies that will profit from a huge leap in sales of AIDS “treatments” to Africa and which provide the profit motive force that helps sustain what critics pejoratively describe as an "HIV-AIDS Industrial Complex" is Gilead Sciences, Inc., a pharmaceutical company in Foster City, California, near San Francisco. Gilead, whose increasing HIV-AIDS drug market share was described by CNNMoney.com on November 19, 2007, could be the most politically connected big pharmCo in the world. It was chaired by Donald Rumsfeld beginning in 1997, until he was named Defense Secretary by George W. Bush in 2001. The Gilead board of directors includes former Reagan Secretary of State George Shultz and U.S. Trade Representative under President George H. W. Bush, Carla A. Hills.

HIV is the name the French and U.S. governments agreed to agree upon in 1987, to settle the messy claim that Gallo had purloined Montagnier’s virus and used it to patent a profitable assay for a set of proteins these two discoverers alleged were associated with antibodies they claimed were formed in reaction to their retroviruses. Versions of Gallo’s and Montagnier’s test are almost universally, but incorrectly, referred to in popular media as tests for the purported human immunodeficiency virus, though there is actually no commercially available test to detect whether a protein-encased, nucleic acid-based genetic code--the definition of a virus--is present in a blood sample. Makers of the “ELISA” and “Western Blot” kits, claimed as tests for HIV antibodies, do not claim they can be used to determine the presence of active HIV virus in the blood. The AIDS industry simply asserts that if you have anti-bodies, which is all the tests purport to determine, you always have the active virus, which Dr. Montagnier disputes, in the interview cited above. Some HIV=AIDS dissenters refer to the so-called “viral load” reading purported to be ascertained from the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) assay as a “viral load of crap.” Even the orthodox HIV=AIDS believers acknowledge that 99.99%-plus of a “viral load” reading by PCR is comprised of non-infectious virus particles, theoretically calculated from searching for only several hundred of the 10,000-or-so chromosomal “base pairs” believed to be associated with the HIV genome.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
ideas like these were not only shot down by everyone on this forum, but used as an proof, by some, of my "kooky californian" loose screws.

what else do you expect when you refer to sources like kung-fu instructors & "Natural Healing" (as opposed to "unnatural" healing I guess) doctors?

you, like most AIDS "skeptics", are a master of quoting out of context. dude in the video (who, in case you didn't know, won a Nobel for discovering that HIV causes AIDS*) doesn't say anything about "people living extraordinarily healthy lives w/HIV". btw those people are called "elite controllers", they're very rare, it has nothing to do with diet (genetics, more likely), and they're the subject of much study (tho by scientists, not kung-fu masters & witch doctors). nor does he back up in any way AIDS conspiracy guff.

the irony is that there are many legitimate questions that could be raised about the cooking of HIV-infection #s to drive profit, the interrelation between poverty & AIDS, the relation between Big Pharma & medical research, etc. you actually do people trying to raise those questions a major disservice by mixing them all up with pseudoscientific Internet denialism. especially b/c you're a dilettante, Zhao. this is just another flitting issue for you to hurl at the evil of Western science or whatever, but it's life & death to a lot of people. like the woman who's book you recommended - she died about a year ago. of pneumonia, (almost certainly) AIDS-related.

I had a good buddy with AIDS, a radical queer activist, dude who'd been around for the beginning of the epidemic, all the battles to get it recognized, the formation of ACT-UP. a man who had no love for corporate interests or the pharmaceutical industry, but he had nothing but the sheerest contempt for people who'd deny their friends had AIDS even as they wasted away to nothing in hospital beds, refusing drugs. I'm with him & John Eden - mostly this nonsense just makes me very angry.

*apropos of the post above, I notice Dr. Montagnier didn't have any qualms receiving his Nobel Prize for a theory he supposedly no longer supports
 
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scottdisco

rip this joint please
David Icke said:
international charities, fronted by wealthy gay and gay-friendly celebrities like Elton John, Elizabeth Taylor and Kenneth Cole

i've never liked that Kenneth Cole
:rolleyes:
 

zhao

there are no accidents
thanks lanugo.

Luc Montagnier is validating most of the key points which i brought up, all of which testament to the reality of the virus being not exactly, in fact in many ways quite different to, what we were told and commonly believed.

you can look at it or rephrase it how ever you want, but this is what is happening.
 

lanugo

von Verfall erzittern
@ mms & padraig (u.s.): It is quite revealing how both of you - in a strikingly similar reaction to my post - immediately try the refute the claims of the dissenters from the single pathogen theory of AIDS by refering to supporters of it that you know from the sphere of your own private lives. What seems to make the opinion of these persons relevant in regard to this matter is obviously not their level of expertise (after all it's a Nobel laureate whom you don't believe) but the fact that they are somehow involved with the current initiative that is being taken against "AIDS". You regard the merit of their effort and struggle as unquestionable and therefore simply dismiss the possibility of a truth that would expose their actions and convictions as futile and heteronomous. For you the the significance of what these people do and what they believe is beyond doubt. Everything that threatens to destroy this little private microcosm of meaning is thus to be labelled as "nonsense". It is precisely this cozy existential bubble bath paired with a ridiculous degree of self-rightneousness that lays the foundations for humanity's enslavement.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
of course. i love fashion. this is nothing new.

oh well i'll let you off then..

...@Ianugo, i'm no scientist, but is this sort of thing pertinent to the issues on this thread?

The scientific community rejects and ignores AIDS-denialist claims as based on faulty reasoning, cherry picking, and misrepresentation of mainly outdated scientific data. With the rejection of these arguments by the scientific community, AIDS-denialist material is now spread mainly through the Internet.
Despite its lack of scientific acceptance, AIDS denialism has had significant political effects, especially in South Africa under the presidency of Thabo Mbeki. Scientists and physicians have raised alarm at the human cost of AIDS denialism, which discourages HIV-positive people from using proven treatments.
Public health researchers in South Africa and at Harvard University have independently investigated the effect of AIDS denialism. Their estimates attribute 330,000 to 340,000 AIDS deaths, along with 171,000 other HIV infections and 35,000 infant HIV infections, to the South African government's former embrace of AIDS denialism.

(from this wiki)

obviously we can all agree w mms when they write However, Yes people who are healthy and have h.i.v. can lead reasonably healthy lives, usually with the use of drugs as well, well the people i know who have hiv anyway, and with minimised risks of infection etc, that's not really a revelation, lucky westerners eh
 

Dusty

Tone deaf
Luc Montagnier is validating most of the key points which i brought up, all of which testament to the reality of the virus being not exactly, in fact in many ways quite different to, what we were told and commonly believed.

Due to continued research, not because it is some conspiracy to mislead?

The virus not being exactly what we first thought isn't in the same realm as the virus being a work of fiction to support a drug industry.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Due to continued research, not because it is some conspiracy to mislead?

The virus not being exactly what we first thought isn't in the same realm as the virus being a work of fiction to support a drug industry.

the likelihood of a significant amount of deliberate mis-information on the part of the pharmaceuticals exists.

and now just speculating, but possibly also served covert political agendas during the 80s, in terms of distraction, fear mongering, and aiding the decidedly turning away from the hedonism of the 70s toward new conservativism and "family values".
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
(from this wiki)
"The scientific community rejects and ignores AIDS-denialist claims as based on faulty reasoning, cherry picking, and misrepresentation of mainly outdated scientific data. With the rejection of these arguments by the scientific community, AIDS-denialist material is now spread mainly through the Internet.
Despite its lack of scientific acceptance, AIDS denialism has had significant political effects, especially in South Africa under the presidency of Thabo Mbeki. Scientists and physicians have raised alarm at the human cost of AIDS denialism, which discourages HIV-positive people from using proven treatments.
Public health researchers in South Africa and at Harvard University have independently investigated the effect of AIDS denialism. Their estimates attribute 330,000 to 340,000 AIDS deaths, along with 171,000 other HIV infections and 35,000 infant HIV infections, to the South African government's former embrace of AIDS denialism."

many of the claims of the skeptics who exist in the wide gray area between hard-core deniers and believers of the hype, and even some of the claims of the hard-core deniers, are now revealed to be much more valid than previously thought, in some cases pretty close to what is emerging as the truth (or the closest we have come to it thus far). plus:
For two decades now, Montagnier has been backing away from the American scientific orthodoxy that HIV, by itself, can impair or destroy cell-mediated immunity to disease.
perhaps that wiki needs to be updated.

i did not start this thread with denial in mind, as i had repeatedly stated; but only to point out contradictions and inconsistencies in the official story, and suggest that the truth lay else where.

(knee jerk reactions were of course to be expected, again not helped by the probably unwise over-sensationalist title.)
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
what else do you expect when you refer to sources like kung-fu instructors & "Natural Healing" (as opposed to "unnatural" healing I guess) doctors?

it is only a beginning and we have a long way to go, but as changes and much needed reforms take place in the medical establishment, hopefully moving away from profit driven models and away from certain outdated cultural and "scientific" biases, holistic and natural healing methods are becoming more and more accepted and embraced.

your prejudices do a good job of displaying ignorance of a deeply indoctrinated kind, the nature of which will become more and more clear as time passes.
 
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