Why Conspiracy Theories?
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john eden
male pale and stale
I am also pro luka. He can be our initial point of unity.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Didn't realise you were such a traditionalist.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Britain had wolves in it once, and they killed people's sheep and probably killed people too. But they were hunted to extinction. So the wolf problem was solved permanently, because no sheep is ever going to spontaneously turn into a wolf and start attacking other sheep.
So a solution to the problem of slaves and masters that goes no further than "kill the masters" runs into two problems. One is that it's highly likely that someone might decide they're worse off than you are, and that your relative position makes you a master in your own right and therefore a legitimate target for violent dispossession or even death. Look at the kulaks in the early USSR. The other possible outcome is that the killers of the masters simply become the new masters, and perhaps crueller masters than those that came before. This isn't hypothetical, either. Look at the history of Liberia.
So a solution to the problem of slaves and masters that goes no further than "kill the masters" runs into two problems. One is that it's highly likely that someone might decide they're worse off than you are, and that your relative position makes you a master in your own right and therefore a legitimate target for violent dispossession or even death. Look at the kulaks in the early USSR. The other possible outcome is that the killers of the masters simply become the new masters, and perhaps crueller masters than those that came before. This isn't hypothetical, either. Look at the history of Liberia.
luka
Well-known member
I bet it's that Zappa book. Wound up almost everyone who loves Zappa. Watson fans like it Zappa fans hate it.
constant escape
winter withered, warm
I think one potentially fruitful approach to take would be the in-between here, neither that the wealthy engineer reality, nor that they play no hand in doing so.
One in-between (which would be bordering on theological, again) could be that they try to do so, and that they partially succeed in doing so, but the system is too complex for them to orchestrate its ramifications as robustly as they would want to. However, while the complexity may be too vast to navigate/manipulate, with enough of a platform and enough resources, the tides can be turned. You don't need to reach infinity to exert near total control, you just need to get ahead of the pack.
But the changing of the tides wouldn't be reducible to the intentions and executions of the wealthy. Rather, it would be as if they were unintentionally, yet effectively, tapping into some larger energy. Which is how we work things beyond our reach: partially, indirectly, with gradual mastery.
Sort of how in working a machine you don't understand, your actions are predicated upon vague feelings of what works and what doesn't. That is how we are in relation to our own neuro-machinery, no? Because we don't have an exhaustive and proven systematic understanding of how belief systems work, and how precisely belief systems correlate to materiality, we can only blurrily (perhaps even superstitiously) press buttons that have, in the past, gotten us what we want.
But the gaps are being closed in on, even if they are being supplanted by new gaps - in science, that is, no?
john eden
male pale and stale
Quite zappaesque.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Huh? I'm saying that just cos anti-Semitism is a conspiracy that's not an argument to dismiss any other conspiracy as 'isomorphic' to it.
luka
Well-known member
Wasn't I responding to vim? Did I quote the wrong post?
version
Well-known member
Yeah, that's why. He's a huge Zappa fan and said it came off like some guy trying to insert himself into the Zappa mythos whilst showing off the contents of his bookshelf.
luka
Well-known member
If you read about the Kochs for a long time they were growing millions and millions away trying to influence national politics and were failing quite pathetically. But eventually they found more successful methods. Being rich and powerful doesn't mean having everything your own way. Record companies spent huge sums on promoting artists who never troubled the charts. Coca-Cola Tab was a failure.
vimothy
yurp
no one actually said this
vimothy
yurp
constant escape
winter withered, warm
edit: technically that could be debated, I think.
But arguably there are more effective means of engineering mass/intersubjective reality than by brute financial force. That is where the science would start, but perhaps it would (partially or wholly) be beyond the commonly accepted empirical parameters of science - so perhaps gnosis would make more sense, which would line up with the borderline-theological nature of it all.
In either case, be it science or gnosis, there are maps to be drawn - or existing maps to be updated, in light of seismic plate shifts.
Whether or not that-to-be-mapped would fall into the category of the empirical, still not clear to me. Perhaps just at a scale too fine for our current reach.
constant escape
winter withered, warm
Well the control would be (the apollonian?) half, and the other half would be just aligning yourself with and dissolving your will into the larger forces. Or some such duality.
edit: And the synthesis would be, predictably, oscillating between the two, until such a fine wave is attained that some qualitative phase shift commences.
edit: And the synthesis would be, predictably, oscillating between the two, until such a fine wave is attained that some qualitative phase shift commences.