This is an escalation without precedent in the terrorist war waged by...Hamas"

Buick6

too punk to drunk
D7_bohs said:
There's so much wrong with that, from the grammar upwards

On the substantive issue; i spent the weekend reading Daniel Deronda, George Eliot's weird book about the position of Jews in 19th c. England; as I heard about the bombing of Lebanon, I was reading the section where Mordecai, a visionary proto- Zionist talks about how a jewish state in Palastine will be a beacon in the region, how the jews will bring the values of the enlightenment, absorbed through their long exile, to flower in the desert. It brings home with a shock - because it is expressed in a language jarring to a modern ear - the colonialism at the heart of the Zionist project, the noble undertaking of a civilising mission, echoes of which can still be heard when Israel is held up as being worthy of support as the only democracy in the area. The arrogant assumption that such an influence would improve the area, and the even bigger assumption at the heart of western liberalism, the believe that it alone can explain and assimilate other discourses - such as Islam - once exposed to the clear light of reason

...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day. Lets not forget the Ottoman Empire if we wanna get all colonialistic on our asses,, it's not my fault, nor the Israelis it fell apart. Ho hum, I didn't realise you could could 'hear' books either, though I don't mind the odd Chomsky podcast maesel'.
You know I really enjoy reading all these 'facts' you guys dredge up off the Internet, some have been quite enlightening, and others hideoulsy biased. I reckon it's terrible what Israel is doing to those poor innocent Lebanese and Palestinians, but if they all spent as much time improving their own lot than blaming and harassing the Jews for all their fucking woes, well, they might just just be as well off as the Jews, wouldn't they? I rest my case.
 
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droid

Guest
Buick6 said:
Fantastic. This guy is defintely bi-polar! Got any other non-polarising opinions, or is it just the shitty weather in Ireland?

lol. If I was Bi-polar I'd posting up an Al-Qaida editorial to counter Horowitz's comments.

Speaking of Bi-polarism - arent you the gimp who was throwing idiotic accusations of anti-semetism around not so long ago?

You seem a bit more reasonable all of a sudden...
 
D

droid

Guest
Buick6 said:
...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day. Lets not forget the Ottoman Empire if we wanna get all colonialistic on our asses,, it's not my fault, nor the Israelis it fell apart. Ho hum, I didn't realise you could could 'hear' books either, though I don't mind the odd Chomsky podcast maesel'.
You know I really enjoy reading all these 'facts' you guys dredge up off the Internet, some have been quite enlightening, and others hideoulsy biased. I reckon it's terrible what Israel is doing to those poor innocent Lebanese and Palestinians, but if they all spent as much time improving their own lot than blaming and harassing the Jews for all their fucking woes, well, they might just just be as well off as the Jews, wouldn't they? I rest my case.

I spoke to soon.

Youre quite possibly a moron - but dont feel bad, youre in good company. :)

This is an actual transcript btw - no joke!

Bush: Yo Blair How are you doing?
Blair: I'm just...
Bush: You're leaving?
Blair: No, no, no not yet. On this trade thingy...[inaudible]
Bush: yeah I told that to the man
Blair: Are you planning to say that here or not?
Bush: If you want me to
Blair: Well, it's just that if the discussion arises...
Bush: I just want some movement.
Blair: Yeah
Bush: Yesterday we didn't see much movement
Blair: No, no, it may be that it's not, it maybe that it's impossible
Bush: I am prepared to say it
Blair: But it's just I think what we need to be an opposition
Bush: Who is introducing the trade
Blair: Angela
Bush: Tell her to call 'em
Blair: Yes
Bush: Tell her to put him on them on the spot.Thanks for [inaudbible] it's awfully thoughtful of you
Blair: It's a pleasure
Bush: I know you picked it out yourself
Blair: Oh, absoultely, in fact [inaudble]
Bush: What about Kofi [inaudible] his attitude to ceasefire and everything else ... happens
Blair: Yeah, no I think the [inaudible] is really difficult. We can't stop this unless you get this international business agreed.
Bush: Yeah
Blair: I don't know what you guys have talked about but as I say I am perfectly happy to try and see what the lie of the land is but you need that done quickly because otherwise it will spiral
Bush: I think Condi is going to go pretty soon
Blair: But that's that's that's all that matters. But if you, you see it will take some time to get that together
Bush: Yeah, yeah
Blair: But at least it gives people...
Bush: It's a process, I agree. I told her your offer to...
Blair: Well...it's only if I mean... you know. If she's got a..., or if she needs the ground prepared as it were... Because obviously if she goes out, she's got to succeed, if it were, whereas I can go out and just talk
Bush: You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's over
Blair: [inaudible]
Bush: [inadubile]
Blair: Syria
Bush: Why?
Blair: Because I think this is all part of the same thing
Bush: Yeah.
Blair: What does he think? He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine, if we get a solution in Israel and Palestine, Iraq goes in the right way...
Bush: Yeah, yeah, he is sweet
Blair: He is honey. And that's what the whole thing is about. It's the same with Iraq
Bush: I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Bashad [Bashir Assad](9a and make something happen
Blair: Yeah
Bush: [inaudible]
Blair:
Bush: We are not blaming the Lebanese government
Blair: Is this...? (at this point Blair taps the microphone in front of him and the sound is cut.)

http://members.boardhost.com/DT3rd/msg/1153146767.html
 
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Buick6

too punk to drunk
droid said:
I spoke to soon.

Youre quite possibly a moron - but dont feel bad, youre in good company. :)

This is an actual transcript btw - no joke!

Quite possibly, my moronic mind was moronic enough to end up here.
 

D7_bohs

Well-known member
Buick6 said:
...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day.

It's being lovely here in Dublin for the last week, thanks.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Buick6 said:
... I reckon it's terrible what Israel is doing to those poor innocent Lebanese and Palestinians, but if they all spent as much time improving their own lot than blaming and harassing the Jews for all their fucking woes, well, they might just just be as well off as the Jews, wouldn't they? I rest my case.

Smart analysis there Buick.

Israel's continued presence in the region is entirely based upon the continued support of American aid. Come on this is simple minded in the extreme!
 

sherief

Generic Human
gek-opel said:
Smart analysis there Buick.

Israel's continued presence in the region is entirely based upon the continued support of American aid. Come on this is simple minded in the extreme!

Agreed- Also, what are we to think of the fact that Israel's strategy involves control of arable land and resources? And I'm sure that once the various Arabs stopped complaining about "the Jews" then this would rebuild their power and water stations that Israel bombed (everyone knows that terrorists love water)
 
gek-opel said:
Smart analysis there Buick.

Israel's continued presence in the region is entirely based upon the continued support of American aid. Come on this is simple minded in the extreme!

Yes, Israel (a US-military satellite state) is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II, having received, it is conservatively estimated, total direct U.S. Aid amounting to $108 Billion. The $3-plus billion per year that Israel receives from the U.S. taxpayer is about one-fifth of the total U.S. "aid" budget, and amounts to more than $600 per Israeli, none of it repayable. So eager is the US to fund the Zionist program that it is currently actively rushing bombs and armaments to Israel to facilitate further Israeli mass terrorism. All funded by the US tax-payer, or, rather, Chinese credit, given that it is China ironically that is keeping the US capital machine blundering on.



Update:

Latest Chomsky-Interview Videos

- The Murder Of A Nation: Lebanon - Israel Facts the Media Isn't Telling You

- U.S. Is A Terrorist State
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
gek-opel said:
Smart analysis there Buick.

Israel's continued presence in the region is entirely based upon the continued support of American aid. Come on this is simple minded in the extreme!

Geez, you're not a press agent for this bloke are you?

Well it is the Jewish homeland, or are we gonna go down that crypto anti-Jewisho tract again? Lets just forget 40+ years of Arabic schools teaching their kids the same fucken vicious propaganda, I mean they don't even put the place on their maps.

America should get out of everywhere. Even your shitty record collections!

And I can't wait until China takes over, that way we won't have an Internerd anymore to post all this stuff!
 
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D7_bohs

Well-known member
The following was posted on a football forum here this week; the poster - in case it isn't clear - is an irish soldier who served in the Lebanon;


Re: Why Do They Hate Us? Lebanon's 9/11
« Reply #5 on 7-21-2006 at 2:33 »


What has happened this week in Lebanon (a country I know very well, having worked and lived there) is absolutely sickening, but alas, not surprising .

Because of their influence in the powerful USA and UK particularly through the Media (which they largely control on both sides of the Atlantic) the Israelis can pretty much do and say as they please.

When they invaded Lebanon in 1978 and again in 1982 they were in breach of UN Resolution 425. They remained in breach of it for almost quarter of a century . Saddam Hussein breached a similiar resolution by invading oil-rich Kuwait in 1990 and was removed within months by the "Big 2". They also possess (and have done for some time) weapons of mass destructions (real ones not imaginary Iraqi ones::)) which the USA and UK seem to have no problem with.(They most likely supplied them of course ).

I also have no time whatsoever for Hizbollah, a jumped up gang who bring misery on their own people by engaging a powerful enemy that they will NEVER come close to defeating. They are fed crap by the Iranians and Syrians whose motives are also based on greed and a fear and reluctance to take on the Israelis themselves. My sympathies lie squarely, as they did when I lived there in the mid'90's, with the Lebanese people.

The bombardment of Lebanon is a war crime with NO JUSTIFICATION. They can point to "abducted soldiers" (Which while also not acceptable) are the actions of a terrorist group (Hizbollah) and not those of a federal state. I can assure you wherever the Israeli soldier that was abducted is being kept, he aint in the fucking control tower of the airport at Rafik Hariri,Beirut Int. Airport. It would in local terms be the equivalent of say after an early 90's IRA action, take the Sniper incidents in South Armagh for example, the UK had responded by sending the RAF in on airstrikes against Dublin Airport, Dublin City & Cork to the south. Imagine the outcry here had that happened and 300+ civilians were dead in a week because of the actions of a group with no real support down here to think of .

The most sickening though of it all for me this week has been the speed of the International community (Ireland included ) to rescue their own "oppressed" from Lebanon and leave the poor Lebanese left to rot. This was the worst possible action as it now leaves the Israelis with a free hand to continue bombing safe in the knowledge, one of their thousands of stray missiles dont land on a US/UK Citizen - an own goal, so to speak

I was there the last time it really kicked off and the Israeli War Machine (I personally refuse to call them a "Defence Force") launched a campaign against Southern Lebanon - Operation Grapes of Wrath in April/May '96. Less than 3 miles from where I was stationed the Israelis fired rockets into a Fijian Controlled UN base at Q'ana (apparently the Cana where Jesus turned water into wine) killing 90+ civilians who had sought refuge there. We had refugees in our own camp and it was shocking having to assure them they'd be OK, when they knew their relatives had been butchered 3 miles down the road. The very fact that the Israelis fired at a UN Base shows the regard they have for the "International Community". Again they will point to the fact that Hizbollah had fired from close to that UN position to hit Northern Israel, but the reality is the UN base was in Groundhog (Under Bunkers) and what may or may not have hit Israel didnt deserve the retaliation it received( a bit like shooting someone for throwing a stone - but hey, they've done that for years also )

There will be winners in this war. Israel has laid down its traditional "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" to Syria and especially Iran. Thay have also ensured Iran is next on George W's World Tour . Those Hizbollah wankers will also claim victory having abducted a soldier or two and hit Haifa, Kiryat Shemona and Nahariya. The losers though as ever, like they were in the '70's when the PLO fucked them up by launching attacks from Lebanese soil, will again be the hard working, mild mannered, gentle people of Lebanon who again are the victims here of tyranny and again when finally trying to take their place again among the nations of the world, they been delivered a knock-out blow. As Middle-East expert Robert Fisk (The only Journalist on this side of the World worth reading - if you want the TRUTH) said - Pity the nation .
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Buick6 said:
Geez, you're not a press agent for this bloke are you?

Yes, that's right, because I point out a basic economic fact behind the practical continued existence of the state of israel, I'm suddenly working for Ahmadinejad. Of course.

On the matter of "its the Israeli homeland", well yes, in as much as it was about 2000 years ago, then wasn't for 2000 years, and then has been for the last 50 or so. They have less of a claim than the Palestinians do, though of course this is a moot legal point in a time of power-politics. If only every side didn't bother to pretend they were morally justified in everything they did, it wouldn't all be quite so galling...
 
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Buick6

too punk to drunk
gek-opel said:
Yes, that's right, because I point out a basic economic fact behind the practical continued existence of the state of israel, I'm suddenly working for Ahmadinejad. Of course.

On the matter of "its the Israeli homeland", well yes, in as much as it was about 2000 years ago, then wasn't for 2000 years, and then has been for the last 50 or so. They have less of a claim than the Palestinians do, though of course this is a moot legal point in a time of power-politics. If only every side didn't bother to pretend they were morally justified in everything they did, it wouldn't all be quite so galling...

not as galling as your statement in that second paragraph. Where did Jews originate from? Why have I got a hooked nose? Have you ever been to Israel? Jews in smaller numbers were living there all along. Ever heard of Sabras?? So if the Jews shouldn't be there, than where? (This is sounding like Hilter's Final Solution...!@#!) In fact, I reckon Ireland could do with a few.

for folks that seem to be 'open minded' and 'non biased' your filtering of subjective information is incredible.
 
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D

droid

Guest
Buick6 said:
not as galling as your statement in that second paragraph. Where did Jews originate from? Why have I got a hooked nose? Have you ever been to Israel? Jews in smaller numbers were living there all along. Ever heard of Sabras?? So if the Jews shouldn't be there, than where? (This is sounding like Hilter's Final Solution...!@#!)

Well, some Zionists suggested Uganda, along with other possible locations such as Ethiopia. And 'Jews in smaller numbers' have been living all over the world for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Ever heard of the Babylonian Jews of Iraq? Is any country with a population of Jews ripe for takeover and conversion to a 'homeland' in your opinion? Is that what your suggesting?

Love the Nazi comparisons btw. Thats 2 in one thread - though I notice you didnt have the balls to leave the first one unedited.

In fact, I reckon Ireland could do with a few.

I thought you were an expert on this? if you had a clue youd probably know that Ireland already has a small Jewish population, and in contrast to their treatment in Europe they have been made extremely welcome.

The present Jewish community of Ireland dates from the 1880s, when immigrants from Lithuania fleeing pogroms and Russian oppression landed in Dublin and Cork. Before that, there had sporadically been small Jewish communities from the mid-17th century on. Jews have never been persecuted in Ireland, probably because they have always been such a tiny minority in an overwhelmingly Catholic country.

http://www.isjm.org/jhr/IInos1-2/ireland.htm

:confused: Perhaps you can explain what the fuck that has to do with gek-opels comments though? or in the heat of a rant do all your evil Nazi enemies just blur into one homogenous mass?

for folks that seem to be 'open minded' and 'non biased' your filtering of subjective information is incredible.

Well if you cant handle the blatant anti-semitism here, just go to any of the sites below and your sense of rightness will be restored:

http://www.israellycool.com/

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

http://www.memri.org/
 
F

foret

Guest
if you had a clue youd probably know that Ireland already has a small Jewish population, and in contrast to their treatment in Europe they have been made extremely welcome

like in ulysses where the schoolmaster proudly says ireland was the only country in europe never to expel the jews, cos they never let them in in the first place
 
D

droid

Guest
foret said:
like in ulysses where the schoolmaster proudly says ireland was the only country in europe never to expel the jews, cos they never let them in in the first place

:confused: Is that where you get your history? From works of fiction? Youre joking right?

Check out that link and contradict its assertions if you have some facts. Otherwise... :p
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
FFS.

@ Buick: I'm simply deconstructing the nature of the claims (which are central to this debate) that the Jewish and Palestinian peoples have upon this certain piece of territory...

"Where did Jews originate from?" Yes I know... however, what about the range of other people who have historically lived there too? Why does this give the Jewish people a greater claim?

"Jews in smaller numbers were living there all along." Why does this give them the right to a state which excludes other peoples tho? Ought every people to have their own homeland? What about the Romanies? Or the Palestinians?

What is the moral, legal, or philosophical basis for the Jewish people winning out on their claim? It appears to be power politics, and nothing else. It is historical happenstance, or do you have a better argument... if America had failed to support the incipient state immediately after WW2, would we be having this conversation? Or have we come to accept over time that the Jewish people are a "special case"... (from Nazis to Zionists and the modern US and Iran, this seems to be the one thing they all agree on). If we are to posit that the Jewish people are simply another historically oppressed, and at times dispossessed people, with nothing which places them either above, or conversely below any other group in a similar position, then their ethical claims on the territory appear unconvincing.

Or are we to believe that genocide justifies the claim. An interesting argument, and one which emotionally has some weight, but it simply doesn't make logical sense-- it justifies reparations, from those who committed the genocide to the survivors and their relatives, not giving that group a piece of land from an entirely unconnected other ethnic group. And what of the other victims of genocide since the Holocaust, in Africa and the Balkans? Surely displacing people from territory they have previously occupied in this way actually perpetuates the conditions under which ethnic/cultural/religious violence occurs...?

Again, I don't mind if these things were posited in terms of power, in terms of "it was possible, it was desired, therefore it occurred"... its when moral post-justifications are strapped on that the whole thing becomes laughable.
 
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