Stalked!

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
But you can't really use "what is my motivation to lie here?" as supporting evidence because that has nothing to do with what really hapenned. Maybe the accuser is lying and now regretting it but it's too late to change things so best to keep going. It's just not how I see justice working.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
That reasoning is used all the time in murder trials where there is nothing more than circumstantial evidence to support charges. The prosecution has to determine "motive." Don't see why the same logic wouldn't apply in a rape trial.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
The big question is: what CAN you use if anyone who claims they were raped is instantly assumed to be lying (as is often the case now in many cultures). This doesn't seem plausible to me as a woman because I've been very close to litigating certain things that happened to me, but knew in the end it would just prolong my heart/headache. I don't have any problem with the idea that a rape case where there is sufficient medical evidence of rape (that is, pelvic/cervical bruising, any kind of bruising on the arms legs, any sort of defensive wounds, any vaginal/anal tearing) probably occurred be tried with the ultimate question about the accuser being: "is there any compelling reason in the accuser's personal history with the accused that could motivate the accuser to fabricate these charges?"

No problems with that at all.
 

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
The difference is that in a murder trial it is used to find someone guilty where the criteria is "beyond a shadow of doubt" not to lend credence to someone's statements. The other difference is that in a murder trial the victim isn't there to provide testimony.
 

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
Of course victim's testimonies shouldn't be automatically suspect. Wouldn't a perpetrator typically have a history so that many women could come forward? But again, you have the whole stigma thing.

I don't think the courts can really change anything until the culture as a whole changes. Do you think there has been progress there? It seems so to me.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
A little change; a lot less than is necessary. We've definitely not "arrived." I think the main difference now is that there's the appearance of equal opportunity for women, which makes people think (because it's such a HUGE concession to make, of course) that everything is fair now and there's no glass ceiling. Well, there is a glass ceiling firmly in place, and often the very men who are "good" and would never rape anyone do a lot to keep it in place. I see a hell of a lot of resistance from men to admit that there are still monumental cultural changes that need to take place before we'll have anything like a "fair" trial for a rape victim or a black man or a prostitute or an illiterate coal miner, etc., etc.
 

borderpolice

Well-known member
My number one question would usually be: what motivation might this woman have for lying about this? Given how difficult it is to accuse someone of rape because of the negative consequences the accuser has to live with, the motivation would have to outweigh that pretty heavily.

Without wishing to endorse the current state of legal practises regarding rape cases, i think it's worth pointing out that in societies where premarital sex/pregnancy, or sexual relations with slaves/members of other races was/is illegitimate, accusing the other side of rape, rather than admitting to consensual sex, has been an easy way out of being sanctioned. This accusation has often been tantamount to a death penalty for the thus accused.
 

elgato

I just dont know
the most obvious specific reform, as already pointed out by gabbaflamencocrossover, is to shift towards a less adversarial legal system, one in which the representatives of the defendant and appellant have a much less overt role in court. not necessarily through the whole legal system (a reform so large as to make it completely unrealistic), but in this area theres surely more than adequate policy justification for such a shift.

i think nomadologist's idea about the case resting on analysis of the appellant's motive is very interesting. i wonder to what degree this kind of logic is currently a part of the legal logic. i dont think it could ever be sufficient alone though, there is only so far one can be certain that there is no reason for the accusation to be fabricated (no motive attributable to the appellant surely cannot equal conviction).

a question i suppose is how much can we feel it is acceptable to sacrifice for legal certainty... does looking at sexual/psychological history have pragmatic implications too drastic to render it at all acceptable as courtroom material? i cant see how they cant form some part of the process, but there has to be a balance. it goes without saying that legal reform must take steps to make the process much less daunting, and less difficult, for females who have been sexually mistreated, the balance is clearly uneven. but in that process the question is how far is it appropriate to go?
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Without wishing to endorse the current state of legal practises regarding rape cases, i think it's worth pointing out that in societies where premarital sex/pregnancy, or sexual relations with slaves/members of other races was/is illegitimate, accusing the other side of rape, rather than admitting to consensual sex, has been an easy way out of being sanctioned. This accusation has often been tantamount to a death penalty for the thus accused.

Yup. I can think of why, back in the old South in the U.S., for example, someone would falsely accuse a random black man of rape if she'd accidentally gotten pregnant by a black man. Just to explain it all away.

Maybe in the deep south things like this still happen. Which SUCKKKSSSS
 
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nomadologist

Guest
the most obvious specific reform, as already pointed out by gabbaflamencocrossover, is to shift towards a less adversarial legal system, one in which the representatives of the defendant and appellant have a much less overt role in court. not necessarily through the whole legal system (a reform so large as to make it completely unrealistic), but in this area theres surely more than adequate policy justification for such a shift.

But if this is a problem on the level of culture, I'm not sure what these reforms would accomplish...
 

elgato

I just dont know
But if this is a problem on the level of culture, I'm not sure what these reforms would accomplish...

that is a question that needs to be asked, but i think it'd be very hard to argue that there is zero value in such reform. while stigma would remain around the issue, and such awful things would continue to occur, there would be a more fruitful and less intimidating outlet for victims to pursue, which is clearly a very positive outcome. of course legal reform must come hand in hand with social and cultural change, but i also believe there is a substantial degree of interface between the two (in both directions), and therefore legal reform also has the potential to act as a positive force aside from more pragmatic or 'real' results, in a more abstract sense (i.e. changes in the law can, over time, affect the basic assumptions and behaviour of a substantial proportion of society).

none of this is to discount the importance of social or cultural change, clearly that is the key, but legal reform is a relatively straightforward and effective way to affect positive change, both real and potential
 
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