from russia with hate

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crackerjack

Well-known member
noel emits said:
If you have a problem with something someone else has said then just take it up with them. Asking questions isn't such a bad idea.
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I have a specific problem with what jaie said and I asked him a question. In return i got gobbledegook. I'm amazed his post is still up and I guess it's just cos none of the mods have seen it. So I'm gonna let them know (I'm not saying this to be pompous, but because some people obv. regard telling tales out of class as the worst offence there is, so I'll be open about it).
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
crackerjack said:
I have a specific problem with what jaie said and I asked him a question.
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You did.

So I'm sure you realise that my request that people do so if they had a complaint was not directed at you but at those here who have not addressed Jaie directly once in this thread, instead firing off offensive suggestions of collusion in racial depravity, passive or otherwise, in all manner of directions.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
48 hour ban for Jaie.

This shit comes very soon after previous warnings about inflammatory posting.

If it happens again it will be for much longer.

If anyone has a problem with that, please PM me.
 
S

stelfox

Beast of Burden
noel emits said:
I'm not sure I understand how people can claim to be offended by someone expressing their honest thoughts and reactions. Nowhere did I see Jaie insisting that anyone agree with what he said. You are all free to question those views and why someone might hold them.

Also, do people seriously think this was an attempt to spread racial hatred?
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this is the most palsied set of views i have ever seen in my life. it's ok spout virulent prejudice whenever you like provided you don't insist other people agree with you? sorry, but i don't think that many p@edophiles insist that everyone mess around with kids. that doesn't exactly make it tolerable.

and in answer to your question, yes.

regardless of any mental health issues the poster has, the racism was pretty lucid and has no place here.

i'm totally willing to believe that the poster might not have said that in a better state of mind, but either way i don't think condoning that kind of stuff helps anyone. better to stop people posting if they're not capable of posting in a decent way.

maybe removing the whole post would be the kindest and most responsible thing to do...?

i'm removing my quote of it.
 
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ripley

Well-known member
Stelfox is right.

words within a given context - i.e. a discussion board - are not empty and do not exist in a vacuum. They have effects on other people and on the shape of the scene they are expressed in.

I didn't read this thread until recently, and I can't say I'm sorry, because it is upsetting and nauseating to come across language like that. And if people feel they can say shit like that without repercussion then the tone of the board changes and certain people (people who are anti-racist and people who are targets of that language) will not come here. Other people (people who like to say that shit) will come here. and what a lovely place this will be THEN.

This is even more true if it is unchallenged.

Racism isn't some nefarious plot by mustache-twirling villains who are evil to the bone, it is a sett of attitudes justifying racial hierarchy, that are embedded in society, and that is reinforced by repeating it. That crap needs to be challenged and shut down --even MORE so if it is unconscious on the part of the speaker.

If a person didn't think about the meaning of what they said, or "didn't really mean it" then they haven't made a conscious choice to support it. Having other people challenge them on it forces them to consider how much they want to stand by their words. What is gained by making dissensus a "safe space" for racism?
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
stelfox said:
maybe removing the whole post would be the kindest and most responsible thing to do...?

i'm removing my quote of it.
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The post is going to stay up there to avoid a repetition of what happened when Jaie's recent confessions thread was removed.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
correct if wrong, but if Jaie had been more judicious with his phrasing, and said something along the lines of

"I sometimes witness violent, bullying behavior and experience prejudice toward me and my family coming from some recent Eastern European immigrants to the UK. from what i understand this might be partially attributed to the culture from which they come, one that tends to glorify brutality, gangsterism, etc ... "

it would have been fine. no?
 
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stelfox

Beast of Burden
he didn't. he didn't say some. he called them *all* dirty, *all* ugly, likened them *all* to animals and then proceeded to say that they, as a community, which makes little sense given that eastern europe is made up of many disparate communities and identities anyway, brought no art or culture to this country. it was like something out of fascism for dummies. i really don't know why anyone would tolerate that.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
oh i don't think it should be tolerated. and i think we have been cutting him slack for maybe a tad too long...

Jaie, if you are reading this, we are not saying that the things you want to express themselves is wrong, just your way of saying it is very, VERY wrong. just follow my example of the re-phrasing above and you should be OK. after all, you don't want to be like the bigots you are so angry with do you?
 
P

Pestario

tell your friends
Is it so easy to separate what one wants to express from the way one expresses it in the context of racial attitudes? Isn't the way Jaie posted indicative of his racist attitude? Zhao's trying to unpack his post to find a valid issue for discussion. Sure, we could do that but that would just be like starting a new thread after reading about Eastern Europeans in the Daily Mail. I don't think this is what Jaie intended to do and trying to legitmise his contribution by digging for something acceptable is coming close to apologising on his behalf.
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
zhao said:
oh i don't think it should be tolerated. and i think we have been cutting him slack for maybe a tad too long...

Jaie, if you are reading this, we are not saying that the things you want to express themselves is wrong, just your way of saying it is very, VERY wrong. just follow my example of the re-phrasing above and you should be OK. after all, you don't want to be like the bigots you are so angry with do you?
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Zhao, I hate to say this (really, I do) but you seem to be pretty selective about which groups of people you think it might be OK for someone to have a 'reasonable' beef with. If I have to spell it out, I can imagine you jumping up and down and demanding Jaie be banned if he'd spouted a load of racist guff about Muslims or Arabs, rather than East Europeans.

You probably think I'm saying this just to (re)start an argument, but I genuinely think it's worth commenting on, while we're on the subject of racism (and anti-racism) anyway.
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
Ray_Alan_Gill_stirring_sauce.jpg
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
Mr. Tea said:
Zhao, I hate to say this (really, I do) but you seem to be pretty selective about which groups of people you think it might be OK for someone to have a 'reasonable' beef with. If I have to spell it out, I can imagine you jumping up and down and demanding Jaie be banned if he'd spouted a load of racist guff about Muslims or Arabs, rather than East Europeans.

You probably think I'm saying this just to (re)start an argument, but I genuinely think it's worth commenting on, while we're on the subject of racism (and anti-racism) anyway.
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if there has been any favoritism on my part leaning toward Muslims and Arabs, it is because of the pandemic and ubiquitous often undeserving bad rap they have been getting, especially in recent times, in the west due to fear mongering politics (not to mention the concrete disadvantages they suffer in opposition to the US/Israel alliance) - and I am just one little dude on the interwebs standing up for the under dog.

with that said, i thank you for pointing that out, and will try to be more just and aware in the future.
 
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