from russia with hate

stelfox said:

i think you are letting the guy off way too lightly. that stuff is deeply prejudiced and can't be construed as anything but. plenty of people don't mean to be racist but that doesn't alter the fact that they are. however, i cannot see how you can take the time to write something like that and not realise what you are doing. a while ago those were the predominant views about jews, then black people, then south asian people. now it's a newer group. just because an immigrant community is less established, it doesn't mean that it should have to ride out those kind of repulsive attitudes and preconceptions until the next bunch of scapegoats arrives. it's wrong on every level, every time, no matter who is saying it. anyone with those attitudes should be fucking ashamed of themselves, especially if they will willingly voice them, far less write them down. anyone defending such behaviour, or condoning by silence should be, too. it's disgusting and reading that makes me feel genuinely sick.

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I agree with this completely and co-sign with Ripley's comments as well.

Forum posts are often ambiguous and can be given a generous, benefit-of-the-doubt type of interpretation, and often that's preferable for maintaining a sense of community . . . however, the other side of the coin is the responsibility to take a stand against trash that crosses the line and to call it out as bullshit when it happens. And as Stelfox states with precision, that's clearly what we have here.

In other words, am in total agreement with Stelfox, Ripley, and Eden ....

zhao said:

with that said, i thank you for pointing that out, and will try to be more just and aware in the future.

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OK, that's cool, no worries.

Yes J was stirring, we can all see that.

And of course the presentation of his ideas was not stylistically in keeping with the acceptable parameters of etiquette for a board like this *understatement for comedy*

At the same time I think that what this partly was was an attempt to confront some difficult thoughts and feelings and to get some input and perspective on them. It wasn't about giving it the benefit of the doubt so much as reading between the lines.

Several people here saw stuff in that post that they felt was worth commenting on and each responded accordingly in his own way and for his own reasons. This does not need to be justified or explained. Neither does the fact that not everyone felt it necessary to immediately type out a full and explicit condemnation. It was obvious this would happen anyway. I could have just done the inevitable or tried as I did to take another approach.

For my part I think that talking to someone about their perceptions is more constructive and useful than speaking about them as if they are not there and invoking 'shame' for having had 'disgusting' thoughts.

pardon me for my intolerance.

ripley said:

Racism isn't some nefarious plot by mustache-twirling villains who are evil to the bone, it is a sett of attitudes justifying racial hierarchy, that are embedded in society, and that is reinforced by repeating it.

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And / or it is a mis-perception born of damage and negative reinforcement that needs also to be challenged on those terms.

I absolutely expected that post to be rapidly deleted frankly and felt that in the meantime I could get in something that might give a little pause for re-evaluation for someone who had come to those *paranoid* conclusions.

noel emits said:

For my part I think that talking to someone about their perceptions is more constructive and useful than speaking about them as if they are not there and invoking 'shame' for having had 'disgusting' thoughts.

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If it were a private conversation, I would maybe buy this. But it's a public performance. And what gets performed ends up being a lot of energy, words, and board space coddling, rationalizing and defending some pretty shameful stuff (racism is shameful, that's the least of it, it is actively harmful too). As I said before, what happens on the board shapes what will happen - who and how people feel its ok to participate. I'm not as concerned about the delicate flowers who enter into discussions by saying hurtful, ignorant stuff as I am about the people who are affected by the hurtful, ignorant stuff.

Also, conversation has to be mutual - if someone BEGINS by making deliberately provocative or clueless statements, I don't think that shows they are interested in being reasoned with. It's not constructive if the person has no investment in the conversation. Instead, you are feeding the likely reason they did it in the first place, giving them attention.

and though I said I think shame would be the right response here, it's obviously not over having thoughts - it's the act of announcing them on a discussion board, and they way they were announced. :slanted:

ripley said:

if people feel they can say shit like that without repercussion then the tone of the board changes and certain people (people who are anti-racist and people who are targets of that language) will not come here. Other people (people who like to say that shit) will come here. and what a lovely place this will be THEN.

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aMinadaB said:

the responsibility to take a stand against trash that crosses the line and to call it out as bullshit when it happens.

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Yes, absolutely - of course I fully agree with and support this. And fortunately there is (next to) no chance that something like that could ever go unchallenged or unmoderated here.

However, I don't necessarily see the post or more importantly the ensuing board activity as entirely without value or interest. You can't get rid of something unpleasant by pretending it doesn't exist - what was posted was provocative but it didn't demand agreement. I believe there actually is some stuff in there that might be worth discussing, although nearly everyone has gone for the default options of 'outrage', 'disgust' and distancing themselves from the possibility of ever having had an improper thought or from being seen to 'condone' or 'defend' someone who has. Yeah, it's not appropriate for the forum - clearly - but try setting those words to a power electronics soundtrack, if you can bring yourself to - how does it sound? Is it so far from being, or at least functioning in a similar manner to, a darkly (humorous) cathartic encounter with some of the shadier aspects of humanity? It made some people feel 'sick' to read - perhaps it had a little unpleasant resonance?

What I have found objectionable on this board of late has been the 'schoolyard politics' calling for bans or making rhetorical appeals to the gallery for people to join in with the invalidating of an other or risk being tarred with the same brush, to mix a few metaphors. I find this sort of self appointed thought policing more repugnant then someone just puking their guts into the ether. Is this the sort of thing that is tolerated, even applauded, here now? No wonder so many good people just don't bother with it anymore.

noel emits said:

What I have found objectionable on this board of late has been the 'schoolyard politics' calling for bans or making rhetorical appeals to the gallery for people to join in with the invalidating of an other or risk being tarred with the same brush, to mix a few metaphors. I find this sort of self appointed thought policing more repugnant then someone just puking their guts into the ether. Is this the sort of thing that is tolerated, even applauded, here now? No wonder so many good people just don't bother with it anymore.

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You make it sound like this is an everyday thing, but it's happened twice with Jaie (certainly deserved the second time) and that's about it. (Most of the discussion around hmlt's banning happened after the event).

I can't see this playing to the gallery, and i really hope you meant a.n. other rather than 'the other' as it's generally used here, cos otherwise it's gonna look pretty pathetic. People talk offensive shit on messageboards, they get slagged off for it: no rocket science required.

Ultimately a place like this either allows complete free speech (short of legal breaches) or it doesn't. Try some that do and see how fast they degenerate.

A.N.Other(s)

For the record and the sake of clarity - Jaie, what you said was completely wrong and doesn't belong here at all. Apart from the content, if there's a point to be discussed it has to reasoned out in some way.

I'm all for forums being moderated, and it's simple to click on the 'report' button on a post, or to tackle someone directly on what they've said, as you yourself did.

The vociferous objections to that post were entirely appropriate and necessary. It's the suggestions that others taking a different tack should be 'ashamed of themselves' or were somehow practicing 'casual racism' that I took exception to.

Never mind, it's the kind of inevitable dust that gets kicked up when someone fires off some nastiness like that.

No wonder so many good people just don't bother with it anymore.

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Maybe i can't comment, since i've only been here 18 months, but the politics section has always been subject to periods of hibernation. it only gets really lively when something dramatic happens or when someone says something particularly contentious. to that extent, i quite miss HMLT - not because there was much to be gained from his spew, but because i enjoyed watching others take the piss out of him.

noel emits said:

If someone has a specific problem with something I've said then please address it. Otherwise fuck off.

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good idea to follow the standards you set for other people, noel.

i don't want to address jaie miller directly. there, i've used his name, created yet another googleable reference to him. is that better now?

the reason i didn't before is because i don't really want to leave anything on the internet that might bite him on the arse later in life when he's in a better state of mind and regretting what he said.

unfortunately, you appear to be so far up on that high horse of yours that it's imposssible to see this.

under normal circumstances, in the first instance, offensive views should be challenged head on. however, in this case addressing them directly is/would have been an abject waste of time. crackerjack proved this when he tried. why would i bother talking to jaie after reading the response he got?

aside from anything else, i didn't want to give jaie more rope with which to hang himself. personally, i don't find watching someone have a complete breakdown online, and spewing that kind of poisonous hatred in public, particularly entertaining or rewarding. jaie should have been banned for that post and has been. it's better for everyone here, and for him, that he is prevented from posting if he can't be trusted or can't trust himself to do so in an acceptable manner.

as for your defence of jaie and his posting, it is a problem... and a big one. as ripley said, allowing that kind of thing to be said (regardless of whether the person in question is capable of discerning what's acceptable and what is not) creates an environment where that kind of thing will be said more and more frequently. it's hardly difficult to figure that out. if that's the kind of board you want, fine. i don't. also, muddying the waters with other agendae (like the correct procedure for the reporting of problems, the way people choose to register their distaste etc) doesn't help matters and implicitly condones such opinions, whether you like it or not. also, on a purely personal level, i think your argument for the validity of anything contained in that post are pretty crazy, but that's another issue.

if, by referring to people not wanting to post here any more, you mean nomad's departure, she waded into an issue that she had absolutely no knowledge of (also catalysed by jaie's racist posting, if you've forgotten), having admitted that she hadn't even seen the initial thread that was deleted, leading the fantastically specious, wet liberal free-speech debate that went on. she got very annoyed when it was pointed out that she had no idea what she was talking about and wasn't exactly qualified to offer an opinion on that issue. her departure was totally unnecessary but if people can't take criticism, they shouldn't lay themselves open to it... repeatedly.

now, i'm not going to tell you to fuck off because i don't think that would raise the standard of the board either, but if ever there was a time to do so, it would probably be now.

stelfox said:

i think you are letting the guy off way too lightly. that stuff is deeply prejudiced and can't be construed as anything but. plenty of people don't mean to be racist but that doesn't alter the fact that they are. however, i cannot see how you can take the time to write something like that and not realise what you are doing. a while ago those were the predominant views about jews, then black people, then south asian people. now it's a newer group. just because an immigrant community is less established, it doesn't mean that it should have to ride out those kind of repulsive attitudes and preconceptions until the next bunch of scapegoats arrives. it's wrong on every level, every time, no matter who is saying it. anyone with those attitudes should be fucking ashamed of themselves, especially if they will willingly voice them, far less write them down. anyone defending such behaviour, or condoning by silence should be, too. it's disgusting and reading that makes me feel genuinely sick.

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yes, totally in agreement. should have been a permanent ban instead of just a 2 day one. enough of this shit.

Well apologies for the strong language, it's not cool. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular but I was annoyed that myself and others seemed to be copping snide flak for something someone else had done, and that when I had tried to point this out in a plain and straightforward way it still continued.

All that really need be said about that post is that it was totally unacceptable. I suggested that there was stuff in there that might be worth discussing, but because it was wrong, not because it was valid.

Nomad canceled her account for her own reasons. There are actually quite a few others who still have accounts here and presumably look at the forum but don't post. Of course that's usual but I do wonder if some people wisely stay out of an environment where efforts at lateral or even just passionate discourse might all too quickly be labeled 'specious' or crazy or summarily dismissed with one-liners and jokey pictures, in favour of a flattened consensus normalcy. I'm probably guilty of some of this as well but I thought this was supposed to be a space away from that. I accept that this doesn't entirely apply in the case of this particular thread, not least because the debate has gone on anyway - I think it's good, real politics in the politics forum! I'm talking more generally and this isn't all directed at you stelfox although I'm probably picking poor examples from the last few days. Anyway, that's why I say that someone acting up is not always entirely without value - it's like an (inappropriate) escape valve for the stuff that goes unacknowledged.

That said I do think more than enough time has been spent on this so that's all I'm going to say. Need to move on and ultimately it's someone else's crap.

ok, fair enough

remain seated ( a joke )

I never thought I'd be westlife..thats a joke, get it, westlife...a boy band...I never thought I would be a boy banned!!!!!!!!!

Why am I posting here today? Because twice today I've been bickering and called the other person Stelfox....

Other person: who the fuck is stelfox!
Me: Shut up!!!

Anyway, seriously, I feel lilke I come with a bag of coal ( metaphoric ) everytime; here this should keep the dissensus fire lit for a while. My soul is coal.

This topic is about the Russians, and should remain about the Russians.

zhao said:

http://current.com/items/84906361_from_russia_with_hate

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I'm not sure anyone's said anything about the Russians.

bassnation is right.

Am I really the first person on the thread to suggest that Jaie is just taking the piss!? He's trolling, surely? Is it because you don't get them here much or something that you don't recognise it?

As it goes, I think he's one of the best forum piss-takers I've ever come across - not only has he effectively got you all bickering with one another in a stereotypically dissensian fashion but his style of prose is wonderful, and it's a pleasure reading his rambles, even if the content is distasteful in the extreme. I wouldn't be surprised if he was Martin Amis or someone pissing away their free time, he's got that kind of morbid humour about him and it's embedded in every single post I've read of his.

I am developing a nascent theory that all questions of real import can be addressed most effectively with Sting songs.