bankruptcy of 'nuum as concept

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
bankruptcy of 'nuum as concept

the "nuum" — defining linear relationships in retrospect — was always total bollocks. It's just that the human brain is extremely adept at finding patterns, whether they're there or not, from constellations of stars in the night sky, to the faces you see in the wallpaper.
 
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droid

Guest
Yeah absolutely. Its impossible to form any narratives about the evolution of music. Everything just kinds, yknow, happens. :slanted:
 

gremino

Moster Sirphine
Before the debate starts wether 'Nuum is correct or not, I'd like to point out that this "Upfront UK Hardcore" (Scott Brown, Hixxy, Dougal & Gammer, Brisk...) is also part of the 'Nuum. Not in terms of culture/social things, but music yeah: hardcore > happy hardcore > trancey happy hc -> upfront uk hardcore :)
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Yeah absolutely. Its impossible to form any narratives about the evolution of music. Everything just kinds, yknow, happens. :slanted:

but...

imposing a linear relationship on the meandering process of evolution (especially when you give it a stupid name) is more than a narrative; it's doing a jigsaw puzzle with a pair of scissors and a hammer.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
so hardcore didn't turn into jungle, the backrooms at jungle nights weren't playing US garage, which then turned into UK garage, that didn't evolve into two distinct branches (the early fwd sound: el-b, horsepower etc) and a more hip-hop-influenced sound (mainly thanks to so solid) and that didn't give us dubstep and grime, no one from grime has become involved in funky and bassline has abolutely nothing to do with dj narrows, 187 lockdown etc. this is all good to know. thanks for the schooling.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
How can you view it in such a linear way? Sure, you can trace a line from dubstep back to old school hardcore or wherever. Sure, you can make a link, draw a line and call it a nuum. Or you could start with garage rock, punk, new wave, synth pop, ibiza and go on from there. But it doesn't tell you anything about all the people in between, everyone who got on at different stops, via different routes, who may have no knowledge of, no influence from, no interest in the earlier stages. It's just a musical version of six degrees of kevin bacon.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
How can you view it in such a linear way? Sure, you can trace a line from dubstep back to old school hardcore or wherever. Sure, you can make a link, draw a line and call it a nuum. Or you could start with garage rock, punk, new wave, synth pop, ibiza and go on from there. But it doesn't tell you anything about all the people in between, everyone who got on at different stops, via different routes, who may have no knowledge of, no influence from, no interest in the earlier stages. It's just a musical version of six degrees of kevin bacon.
That's why imo the emphasis should be on it being a nuum rather than the nuum. Can we get a rhizome into this?

And yeah, the emphasis on the individual and the specific and only building up a grand narrative based on them is why I like Blackdown's blog so much. His response to Funky wasn't to start theorizing about how it fits into a social / demographic / musical model of the east london scene but to go and talk to Sarah Soulja and Geenius. And then start theorizing.
 

mms

sometimes
the "nuum" — defining linear relationships in retrospect — was always total bollocks. It's just that the human brain is extremely adept at finding patterns, whether they're there or not, from constellations of stars in the night sky, to the faces you see in the wallpaper.


for a start it would seem to me it's not developed in retrospect , never has really and two the linear patterns are clear, and followable, and provable through audiences and musicians experiences, productions and habits, which his work always does, 'all the people along the way.' Course there are other patterns break-offs and branches too but its as an idea it's open to testing, adapting and otherwise.


The second part of that argument, that the experience of linearity is a process of serendipidous linking too, surely you can't be serious really?


don't know what the fuss is about reynolds post is, i'm with polz here not sure where the problem is, course it's easy to attack him, rather than using the concept to disprove or invert, the concept, snap off, create branches and fractures , alternative numm's etc, with the rigour that he has proved the numm as a theory that's stood up.
 
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droid

Guest
but...

imposing a linear relationship on the meandering process of evolution (especially when you give it a stupid name) is more than a narrative; it's doing a jigsaw puzzle with a pair of scissors and a hammer.

And yet its a common and uncontroversial method used in history, science and art. Linear narratives do exist and are relevant if you take a wider view:

evolution_of_man.gif


How can you view it in such a linear way? Sure, you can trace a line from dubstep back to old school hardcore or wherever. Sure, you can make a link, draw a line and call it a nuum. Or you could start with garage rock, punk, new wave, synth pop, ibiza and go on from there. But it doesn't tell you anything about all the people in between, everyone who got on at different stops, via different routes, who may have no knowledge of, no influence from, no interest in the earlier stages. It's just a musical version of six degrees of kevin bacon.

No it doesnt if you take the most simplistic form of the 'nuum: Hardcore>>Jungle>>Garage>>Grime, but of course this is just the broad strokes of a theory that does explicitly take into account the influence of individuals and the various people, processes and social/sonic conditions that link the genres.

And of course the reason the 'nuum starts at rave (as Im sure you know), is because of the revolutionary social, and musical aspects of that scene and the impact it had.

don't know what the fuss is about reynolds post is, i'm with polz here not sure where the problem is, course it's easy to attack him.

It seems to be partly because people get miffed when their scene is either ignored, dismissed or criticised, the 'butwhataboutisms' that sparked the 'nuum backlash earlier this year. I guess the fact that people seem so concerned about what he says just shows how relevant Reynolds still is. :D

As Slothrop mentions its a continuum, not the bible.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
No it doesnt if you take the most simplistic form of the 'nuum: Hardcore>>Jungle>>Garage>>Grime, but of course this is just the broad strokes of a theory that does explicitly take into account the influence of individuals and the various people, processes and social/sonic conditions that link the genres.

And of course the reason the 'nuum starts at rave (as Im sure you know), is because of the revolutionary social, and musical aspects of that scene and the impact it had.

It doesn't start with rave. It starts with the arrival of the Windrush and the subsequent colonising of British pop culture by reggae. Every single last bit of British music that's worth anything at all has its roots in reggae. Anything that doesn't sucks.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
And yet its a common and uncontroversial method used in history, science and art. Linear narratives do exist and are relevant if you take a wider view:

No it doesnt if you take the most simplistic form of the 'nuum: Hardcore>>Jungle>>Garage>>Grime, but of course this is just the broad strokes of a theory that does explicitly take into account the influence of individuals and the various people, processes and social/sonic conditions that link the genres.

And of course the reason the 'nuum starts at rave (as Im sure you know), is because of the revolutionary social, and musical aspects of that scene and the impact it had.

It seems to be partly because people get miffed when their scene is either ignored, dismissed or criticised, the 'butwhataboutisms' that sparked the 'nuum backlash earlier this year. I guess the fact that people seem so concerned about what he says just shows how relevant Reynolds still is. :D

As Slothrop mentions its a continuum, not the bible.

But what's the point? So you can show a trend of musical development though certain producers and audiences, so what?

To say that someone did this and then they did that and then they did something else, fine, you can trace their individual development, see how their music progressed. But to consider everyone's individual development as part of a theoretical trend is to render everyone individually irrelevant, whether you account for their influence in the trend or not. The trend becomes the only thing that's important.

It's the sociologist who has an idea about an aspect of human behaviour, goes out and finds evidence to support it, because s/he finds what s/he wants to find, and makes a wholly plausible case. Yes, it might make interesting reading in one article or one book, but to give it any more focus than that is to put the theory above the constituent parts, to put the trend above the people who supposedly formed it.

It's not that a few 'butwhataboutisms' invalidate the trend, but that virtually no individual actually fits it. So what does the trend tell you? It's an intention that no one really had, a path that no one really followed. It tells you nothing about anyone or anything but itself.

As I said, what's the point?
 

nomos

Administrator
That's why imo the emphasis should be on it being a nuum rather than the nuum. Can we get a rhizome into this?
that's why concepts like gilroy's black atlantic, erik davis' black electronic, eshun's black atlantic futurism, goodman's hyperdub, kevin martin's macro-dub infection, etc. are better starting points imo. they're be both specific and amorphous. you can see multiple continua running through each, and crossing over into others, infecting, becoming-, etc. without overly prioritizing one place, perspective or stream.

true if you talk about it as a continuum amongst many then it does its job well but how often is it actually uttered that way (by anyone)? it's almost always deployed like this hagiographic singular thing: The Nuum. and fidelity to ideals of The Nuum implicitly determines a music's worth.

as i've said before, it's very useful shorthand for a particular period which has largely receded. but sorry to say it's not rigorous. if you lay out everything that's gone on in UK music since the windrush, or hip-hop, or house arrived - or just since rave - and you start drawing lines between the bits you get something very tangled. and that's before you start adding in everything that's coming from elsewhere. yeah ardkore begat jungle, and jungle begat 2step, etc. but obviously that's not all that was going on by a mile. the term usefully points to futurist and fwd drives but its scope is still too narrow.

The Nuum necessarily has to write out what it considers peripheral to maintain its consistency - i.e. the 'non-hardcore' moments as SR describes them. for one thing that means writing out even the other scenes that ardkore gave way to directly. and how do you account for 'non-hardcore' elements popping up a couple of years later and driving some new Nuumological development?

plus, 'feminine pressure'* is a huge complicating factor because it represents a whole other continuum of musical development and crowds moving between scenes. and not coincidentally the impetus is often one scene's shift towards a more 'hardcore' stance, which usually entails a 'no gyal tune' undercurrent. somewhere, recently, i read someone saying that what's wrong with funky is that you'll never hear about police locking off its raves. that's about the crux of it - critics and punters with this nagging feeling that their tastes aren't legit unless they can make a claim for the music being dangerous or resistant.

long story short - it's useful shorthand for a period that has largely past. the term has problems and while it can be used in the multiple it rarely is, making it highly subjective and strictly genalogical. it depends on the idealization of 'hardcore' at the expense of other considerations, most notably what 'hardcore' means for those it marginalizes.

saying this is not to take a swipe at his oeuvre or say 'whataboutme.' as much as anything i think you've got a group people here who've been profoundly influenced by his work, now building on it, critically engaging it and calling him on what appear to be inconsistencies.

and just an aside, there are also several different issues getting tangled up in the posts above...

1 - the enduring usefulness of the idea of the hardcore continuum re: contemporary music
2 - whether fidelity to the nuum in itself is grounds for determining the worth of a music
3 - 1 & 2 aside, SR's cheap shots at uk house/funky. i don't think anyone cares if he likes it, just that he get to know his subject better before slighting it, as with dubstep before.

...

* which seems to refer to quite rigidly hetero sites, so even feminine pressure isn't singular.
 
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Blackdown

nexKeysound
somewhere, recently, i read someone saying that what's wrong with funky is that you'll never hear about police locking off its raves. that's about the crux of it - critics and punters with this nagging feeling that their tastes aren't legit unless they can make a claim for the music being dangerous or resistant.

When I interviewed Soulja, Gee and Supa D, there was lots of talk about Trident, clubs getting locked off and the such, which only added to the sense that it 1) was UKG circa 2000 all over again 2) that the tabloid "MCs = trouble, nice music = no trouble" is as clearly crap as it always was 3) that it goes to show that unless it's a club in a place thats visible to bloggers/media, ie the west end or shoreditch, it wont be considered to be happening.

To me all you need to know about funky is right here. It's grime in negative, the total inverse. people can argue the ins and outs of which cultural factor (JA v Africa etc) is driving what, but it's the influence of gender that's the primary one.

i also feel exasperated with reynolds-on-dubstep with this 'you're no more than the sum or your parts' attitude. how many good ideas does dubstep have to come up with before just one of them gets recognised as original? many, it would seem.
 

nomos

Administrator
To me all you need to know about funky is right here. It's grime in negative, the total inverse. people can argue the ins and outs of which cultural factor (JA v Africa etc) is driving what, but it's the influence of gender that's the primary one.
not to get too OT, but this: - look at the crowd, look at the energy.
 
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To me all you need to know about funky is right here. It's grime in negative, the total inverse. people can argue the ins and outs of which cultural factor (JA v Africa etc) is driving what, but it's the influence of gender that's the primary one.

Not to start a separate topic or discussion here, but Circle as a crew are very dismissive of the newer UK shit that's coming through. It's not as extreme as the UKG vs Grime shit, but Circle champion the "deeper/soulful" side of things, and you've got their members openly criticizing the newer wonky/"funky" stuff that's come through. They're very strict about their raves and what they'll play.
So I'd argue that's not really all you need to know about funky given that these are clear opponents of a lot of the sound coming through. To champion a Marcus Nasty set and a Circle event is trying to suggest that the two sides of the sound are a cohesive whole, which they're not.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
Not to start a separate topic or discussion here, but Circle as a crew are very dismissive of the newer UK shit that's coming through. It's not as extreme as the UKG vs Grime shit, but Circle champion the "deeper/soulful" side of things, and you've got their members openly criticizing the newer wonky/"funky" stuff that's come through. They're very strict about their raves and what they'll play.
So I'd argue that's not really all you need to know about funky given that these are clear opponents of a lot of the sound coming through. To champion a Marcus Nasty set and a Circle event is trying to suggest that the two sides of the sound are a cohesive whole, which they're not.


i know, there's the piece on Mel B's blog plus check the quote from Gee here.
 
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