Watchmen

padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
boombox said:
Anyway, I felt it was a demand needed to be made of this particular work. Godard's Notre Musique is full of empty characters / personas spouting random philosophical nuggets but it worked.
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alright. so really it just boils down to "you didn't like it". your judgement that it "doesn't work" whereas Godard (or whatever) does is what's arbitrary.

boombox said:
But why write a story at all if you could write a checklist or an essay showing what you think?
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I dunno, a thousand reasons. because you enjoy writing stories more than essays. because most people pay more attention to stories with colorful pictures than they do to essays. because Alan Moore grew up as both a comics fanboy & a hippie idealist & wanted to elevate comics, all the things Droid said.

this is like asking why people write lyrics to songs as clearly their ideas would be better & more clearly expressed as essays.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
droid said:
BTW - I uploaded the entireity of miraclemen/marvelman a few months back. The link is in the comics thread. All moore fans should read it - its kind of a dry run for Watchmen.
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nice one, never read marvelman - thanks Droid - I will check it out when I have time...
 
D

droid

Guest
zhao said:
droid did you ever read Big Numbers? i thought it was fucking so brilliant. but i think they only made it to issue 2 and the project ran out of steam or money as it wasnt a good seller?
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Yeah, it was exceptional. Part of his 'real life is more interesting than superheoreos' phase. AFAIK he fell out with Bill Sienkiewicz, tried to get a new artist and it all got delayed so long that it sunk the new publishing company he'd started.

@ Padraig - let me know if the link is dead and I'll up it again. :)
 
boombox

boombox

...
alright. so really it just boils down to "you didn't like it". your judgement that it "doesn't work" whereas Godard (or whatever) does is what's arbitrary.
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Well, "i don't like it" because "it doesn't work". Again, it's not arbitrary. Every work is unique. The same approach will have two different outcomes - Watchmen sets out to give us strong character and story while Notre Musique doesn't. The parameters and context are worlds apart.

A work can be enthralling and inspiring where characters are seen to be no more than personas for the artist but, in my opinion, not in Watchmen's case.

this is like asking why people write lyrics to songs as clearly their ideas would be better & more clearly expressed as essays.
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I was very clear. My point is Watchmen plays like a song whose melody suffers because it is being bent uncomfortably around its lyrics, because the song was written only to convey a message. In an essay it's just your ideas that need to shine, in a comic or a film or a song it's not enough. The themes, ideas behind Watchmen would make an interesting essay but as a work of art it is lacking.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
boombox said:
In an essay it's just your ideas that need to shine, in a comic or a film or a song it's not enough. The themes, ideas behind Watchmen would make an interesting essay but as a work of art it is lacking.
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That's kinda dismissing pretty much every important art movement of the 20th century, but I don't really wanna go there.

I went to see it with someone who didn't know anything about the book, or its author, and they were totally blown away, much more so than me. They were just like "It makes every other comic film redundant", they genuinely saw it as the closest thing they'd seen to art within its medium, which I thought said alot. I was surprised, actually, cos I got that from the book, so it was interesting to see it translate (its ideas) translate through purely the film.
 
D

Dunninger

-
boombox said:
The themes, ideas behind Watchmen would make an interesting essay but as a work of art it is lacking.
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I think presenting these ideas in the medium they deal with is perfectly valid. For me a lot of what makes Watchmen great is the way Moore and Gibbons play with the visual language of comics - panel and page layouts, colours, line work, pacing etc. In my opinion they did a wonderful job and the effect would have been very different if Watchmen was an essay.
 
D

droid

Guest
Well it could never be an essay. A novel maybe. I found the plot (an old fashioned whodunnit really) and the use of dramatic tension totally gripping. Its not simply a hook to hang ideas on, it has its own drive - this is what I think is good about Moore, he manages to retain some of the narrative qualities of 'old' comics whilst creating a context and world that's far more complex and dense. Something he manages even in more overwrought work like 'Promethea'.
 
boombox

boombox

...
That's kinda dismissing pretty much every important art movement of the 20th century, but I don't really wanna go there.
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No it's not, so it's a good thing you don't.

I have been mainly talking specific to Watchmen and its specific flaws within the specific parameters it sets for itself.


"Well it could never be an essay"

Obviously "Watchmen" couldn't be. I was talking about the ideas, themes, concepts behind it.
 
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D

droid

Guest
You claim that the ideas and themes outweigh and dominate the story and give few specifics to back this opinion up.

That's all perfectly valid criticism, but its purely subjective. You weren't convinced by it - fine. That doesn't mean you're objectively 'right' in your assessment.
 
D

droid

Guest
Well, you say you don't like it because 'it doesnt work', which certainly gives that impression. :cool:
 
boombox

boombox

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Well, you say you don't like it because 'it doesnt work', which certainly gives that impression.
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If the comment is beneath the kid with the spotlight, it's my subjective opinion (tautological in itself).

I don't like it; it doesn't work because it fails to make me like it. It doesn't work for me.

I've shown my working.
 
U

UFO over easy

online mahjong
mistersloane said:
They were just like "It makes every other comic film redundant", they genuinely saw it as the closest thing they'd seen to art within its medium, which I thought said alot. I was surprised, actually, cos I got that from the book, so it was interesting to see it translate (its ideas) translate through purely the film.
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Do you know if they've seen Batman Begins? It's genuinely one of my favourite films ever (don't make fun!), and deals far better with quite similar themes in my opinion
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
UFO over easy said:
Do you know if they've seen Batman Begins? It's genuinely one of my favourite films ever (don't make fun!), and deals far better with quite similar themes in my opinion
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Yeah he's seen BB, I kinda mentioned it when we were talking about it later, and yeah I can see what you mean, it's a better film. So dark. Bring on Arkham Asylum, that's what I say with the Batman things. They've just been building up to it forever.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
droid said:
Dark Knight returns ... Eastwood as batman
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good choice. and david hasselhoff as the loser tool clark kent. seeing his face get bashed in by the old man would be a treat indeed.
 
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CHAOTROPIC

CHAOTROPIC

on account
mistersloane said:
That's kinda dismissing pretty much every important art movement of the 20th century, but I don't really wanna go there.

I went to see it with someone who didn't know anything about the book, or its author, and they were totally blown away, much more so than me. They were just like "It makes every other comic film redundant", they genuinely saw it as the closest thing they'd seen to art within its medium, which I thought said alot. I was surprised, actually, cos I got that from the book, so it was interesting to see it translate (its ideas) translate through purely the film.
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I'm going to watch it with David in iMAX next week ... can't wait!! The trailer was fucking AMAZING wasn't it???
 
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