The Middle East/Islam as a trope in electronic music

[Mr. Tea]

So is this, like, a known thing? Picking up from some of the chat about Muslimgauze vs. Vatican Shadow on the BEB thread...






Aww Nein posted this, which I hadn't heard before but which is quite cool I guess:


And, um, this...

Any more worthwhile examples? And is there anything particularly 'to it', or is it just (as Nein says) a bit of western Orientalism? I know Bryn Jones was pretty heavily involved in pro-Palestinian/anti-imperialist politics but apparently he never actually visited anywhere in the Middle East himself...

 

[sufi]

this might be of interest: http://islamscifi.com/a-mosque-among-the-stars-available-for-free/ (except it's scifi not music)

 

[baboon2004]

Pinch - Qawwali - interesting interview with him in the Wire (I don't get his music too much, but he seems like a very interesting and cool guy), where he explained the genesis of that, and how it came from a mixtape/CD his brother's girlfriend had given him of music from Pakistan. So for him, a personal connection, and I think that that might've also been a factor in Shackleton's music, since they've worked together a bit?

 

[SecondLine]

or is it just (as Nein says) a bit of western Orientalism?

I find it hard to get past this aspect of it, most of the time.

I remember a long Shack interview (with Blackdown maybe?) where he ties himself in knots - in his typically thoughtful way - trying to explain the title of that track.

 

[baboon2004]

I guess it would be difficult to know what else, aside from political sympathies as Tea said, there could be to it. Musical magpieism, whether through a personal connection or just from finding out about it randomly.

Bowie had a track called Yassassin from his time in Berlin, off Lodger, which would seem to make sense given he lived in a Turkish area there. Must be lots of other examples even from before the early 80s.

 

[Benny B]

Obvious but needs mentioning

I also started a little thread about SUFI PLUG-INS a while back
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?12429-SUFI-PLUG-INS&highlight=sufi+plug

 

[IdleRich]

Aren't there two strands to this; bored/inventive western musicians looking for new sounds and scales, and those who are interested, either dilettantly or seriously, in the politics? Of course these overlap but there is a difference between someone using a cool snakecharmer sample and Muslimgauze.

 

[droid]

I guess it would be difficult to know what else, aside from political sympathies as Tea said, there could be to it. Musical magpieism, whether through a personal connection or just from finding out about it randomly.

Bowie had a track called Yassassin from his time in Berlin, off Lodger, which would seem to make sense given he lived in a Turkish area there. Must be lots of other examples even from before the early 80s.

Also, 'abdulmajid'

Jungle wise the pickings are very slim. Babylon Timewarp and Paradox sampling Peter Gabriel's Last Temptation is about as far as it goes, apart from this very famous sample from an Algerian singer:

 

[crofton]

There's a continuum of Morocco-related stuff from Brian Jones's pipes of pan (not really electronic tho) through things like dissidenten, aisha kandisha's jarring effects, and more modern things. and there's a lot of north african sounds in 90s french hip hop like e.g. lunatic but perhaps that's also not really the area you're looking for.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Aren't there two strands to this; bored/inventive western musicians looking for new sounds and scales, and those who are interested, either dilettantly or seriously, in the politics? Of course these overlap but there is a difference between someone using a cool snakecharmer sample and Muslimgauze.

Yeah, this sounds reasonable.

Something else I'm wondering is exactly how 'political' a completely instrumental track can be (whether it sounds explicitly Middle Eastern or not) just because it's called 'Well-Thumbed Copy Of The Hadith In The Breast Pocket Of An Adolescent Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade Recruit' or whatever. Can music with no lyrics be political just because the tracks have provocative names and because the person who made the music says it is?

Of course it's different if a track has vocal samples in Arabic (or Urdu etc.) but if we're talking about music made in a Western country by a white Westerner then probably most people listening to it will likewise be white Westerners and likely have no idea what it's saying. Actually does anyone know if Muslimgauze has any kind of following in the middle east/south Asia?

 

[IdleRich]

"Can music with no lyrics be political(?)"

Yes. It certainly can be in general so I don't see why it can't be in this case.

 

[e/y]

This thread made me think of Badawi, although he was born in Israel afaik before moving to New York at a young age. So, not the same as really as an outsider making music inspired by the ME, but tangentially related and I think his music is quite interesting (and he worked with/knows Shackleton?): http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1302

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

rich is right, it's a gradation like any kind of non-Western influence that can slide into appropriation (or misappropriation). what's important is the intent and purpose. are you just using it for shock value, i.e. Ministry, or to inject Oriental mystery or whatever, or are you actually engaged with the culture, the ideal of which is maybe like those Blackdown + Dusk tracks from Margins Music. which isn't always clear I guess -when I saw tea's initial post I immediately thought of that Shackleton interview (it is by Blackdown, ca. 07 or so I think, skull disko was still going) where he basically concedes that while he doesn't want to self-censor for fear of provoking reaction he probably should've named the track something else b/c he really didn't have a vision for what it was supposed to be saying, which is something you need to know if you're going to use loaded imagery.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

how 'political' a completely instrumental track can be

very much. silence can be political (i.e. Crass - The Freedom of Speech). tho w/o lyrics the title - or samples or artwork I guess - has to provide all the context. this is what bugs me about bullshit like Vatican Shadow. that dude ain't saying a goddamn thing, it's the same as whatever stupid neofolk band using "provocative" fascist imagery, or ridiculous Whitehouse titles (tho I guess those at least are kind of tongue in cheek?). or on a much more distasteful level, the difference between "Rape" by Zos Kia and any random Cannibal Corpse song.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah, I think if you're going to give a track/album or any piece of art a politically provocative title you should at the very least have a plausible back story so that when someone asks you about it you don't end up saying "Dunno really, I just thought it sounded cool".

Cabaret Voltaire I think were generally pretty aware and thoughtful (i.e. not yer run-of-the-mill ooh-aren't-we-so-shocking industrial band) and I think one of their big obsessions in the '80s was the parallels between Islamic and Christian fundamentalism.

Hence:

and

 

[Slothrop]

(Edit: mostly in reply to Padraig...)
Using the politics in a shallow way for shock value is clearly problematic, but I'm not so sure about purely musical appropriation.

It's sort of a standard chesnut in these discussions that just slapping a couple of samples on your tune for "ethnic flavour" is bad but it's alright if you properly engage with the culture and really appreciate / understand the musical forms and incorporate them into your music on a deep level to come up with some sort of genuine fusion... but tbh there's loads of stuff that piles on the cheap exoticism with no attempt at deep understanding and integration - think sino grime, classic Horsepower, everyone who's ever sampled a kung fu film - but is still really great.

Or is exoticism in itself problematic beyond what it does (or doesn't do) for the music?

 

[datwun]

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Jungle wise the pickings are very slim

well not actually jungle, but Egyptian Empire - Horn Track, def on the Orientalist. can you name me any tracks that use that Algerian sample? I know I've heard it before, tho not necessarily in jungle

also @tea, well yeah CV (+ Coil, TG, etc) were operating on an infinitely higher level, in every way, than 99% of whatever industrial + power electronics + etc followed. that's what I mean, it's not like you can't do it or can only do it one right way, it doesn't even have to be deep or thoughtful really, but you gotta engage with the source material in some meaningful way. that's what elevates an influence (or a loaded or transgressive topic) above exploitation.

 

[IdleRich]

"It's sort of a standard chesnut in these discussions that just slapping a couple of samples on your tune for "ethnic flavour" is bad but it's alright if you properly engage with the culture and really appreciate / understand the musical forms and incorporate them into your music on a deep level to come up with some sort of genuine fusion... but tbh there's loads of stuff that piles on the cheap exoticism with no attempt at deep understanding and integration - think sino grime, classic Horsepower, everyone who's ever sampled a kung fu film - but is still really great."

Yeah, that's why I deliberately left it neutral when saying there were two ways of going about it. You can't blame musicians for looking for new sounds, be they samples or instruments or whatever. I'm sure that for some people coming to an instrument new and not knowing the history of it or anyone else who plays one is probably part of the attraction. That said if you make a track that you think is cool and then call it Jihad on The US cos you think that's cool too then you might run into some problems.

 

[Slothrop]

To put it another way, is there a worse start to a sentence than "for his latest album, Courtney Pine spent six months working with musicians from..."