The Culture War

[version]

I know luka's voiced his concerns about discussing this stuff on here in the past, but it doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon so...

I'm reading a thread on the neoliberal subreddit atm re: America's ongoing "culture war" making its way into Europe and there are some interesting responses. Some people are frustrated it's only American incidents which generate this kind of reaction when there's incidents of racism already occurring at home which need confronting. A German poster mentioned a lot of people seem to have English signs and that they aren't sure what signal they're trying to send and to whom. There seems to be a general frustration that they're forever taking cues from the US.



The Telegraph just published something about Britain's freedom being under threat from "an American-exported culture war" too, despite milking it themselves since the referendum and publishing stuff about "liberals" that reads as though it's aimed at the Fox News crowd...

Our freedom is under threat from an American-exported culture war

The US template being imposed on British race relations ignores our own history and culture

www.telegraph.co.uk

We've got bollocks like Turning Point over here now too...

What is Turning Point UK? The launch of right-wing youth group is going as well as expected

The “white supremacist” American import is getting the British welcome it deserves.

www.newstatesman.com

Thoughts?

 

[entertainment]

I don't know man. It was such a nice feeling the other day going on twitter after a few months off and seeing people discussing the same exact shit under new circumstances, the discourse having progressed in no meaningful way in my absence.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

first: the idea there isn't systemic racism in Europe is absolutely ridiculous

to what degree European racism is institutionalized I'd guess varies by country, especially how large and/or well-integrated racial minorities are

it's more complicated to speak of European racism in purely racial terms b/c so much of it is tied up with Islam and/or immigration

for historical and demographic reasons, there's nothing approaching American racial toxicity in Europe

and idk, but would assume, there's nothing directly comparable to something like redlining

also, (Western) European policing is generally much less harsh, or militarized

but it's not as if systemic racism, police brutality and the nexus of the two don't exist in Europe

it's not like you have to look hard to see it - repeated banlieue rioting, or in the UK (1981, 2011, etc) linked to police treatment/killing of POC and more broadly, economic deprivation

 

[version]

I don't know man. It was such a nice feeling the other day going on twitter after a few months off and seeing people discussing the same exact shit under new circumstances, the discourse having progressed in no meaningful way in my absence.

I'm incredibly grateful I ditched Twitter. I still glance at it from time to time, but it's like looking at the sun. I shield my eyes, get a quick look then turn away.

 

[version]

@padraig (u.s.) what's "redlining"?

 

[...]

Europe perfected the concept and ultimate trajectory of racism, see George L Mosse Toward the Final Solution

 

[version]

Europe perfected the concept and ultimate trajectory of racism, see George L Mosse Toward the Final Solution

Are racism and the culture war the same thing? I was under the impression it was broader than that and also included stuff like religion and opposition to LGBTQ people.

 

[entertainment]

I'm incredibly grateful I ditched Twitter. I still glance at it from time to time, but it's like looking at the sun. I shield my eyes, get a quick look then turn away.

Yeah exactly I still feel something drawing me in. Some kind of FOMO. And then after a while of scrolling through this endless drip of sardonic sneering and self-fellating nihilism and precocious hyper-refined irony, I never want to have anything to do with those people ever again.

 

[version]

Yeah exactly I still feel something drawing me in. Some kind of FOMO. And then after a while of scrolling through this endless drip of sardonic sneering and self-fellating nihilism and precocious hyper-refined irony, I never want to have anything to do with those people ever again.

It sometimes gives me a false sense of security too as all the positive responses I see to people like Trump are blatantly bots and it lulls me into thinking there aren't actually millions of people out there who genuinely support him.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what's "redlining"?

originally it meant the systemic denial of housing loans to black people - during the Depression, the federal govt decided to start insuring mortgage loans, to make home ownership significantly more feasible for more Americans. there was a massive survey of urban neighborhoods to determine the risk level of real-estate investments. the least desirable/highest risk neighborhoods - very often, black neighborhoods - were shaded (or possibly outlined) in red. over time it came to more broadly mean any official policy that denies services to or systemically discriminates against POC, i.e. environmental racism.

I was just saying I doubt there have historically been policies on that level in Europe - numerically significant racial minorities in most European countries is relatively recent, I think?

I wouldn't doubt that there have been racist policies on an informal or local level, especially in areas with high numbers of POC/immigrants

 

[entertainment]

In today's culture wars in Denmark, a protestor with a sign saying 'Racism is little dick energy' was accused of body shaming. Thrilling debates were had, intellectual sparks flying in the marketplace of ideas

 

[version]

originally it meant the systemic denial of housing loans to black people - during the Depression, the federal govt decided to start insuring mortgage loans, to make home ownership significantly more feasible for more Americans. there was a massive survey of urban neighborhoods to determine the risk level of real-estate investments. the least desirable/highest risk neighborhoods - very often, black neighborhoods - were shaded (or possibly outlined) in red. over time it came to more broadly mean any official policy that denies services to or systemically discriminates against POC, i.e. environmental racism.

I was just saying I doubt there have historically been policies on that level in Europe - numerically significant racial minorities in most European countries is relatively recent, I think?

I wouldn't doubt that there have been racist policies on an informal or local level, especially in areas with high numbers of POC/immigrants

Ah. I'm not sure re: policies on that level in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if the English had done something like that to the Irish, but I've no clue.

 

[yyaldrin]

In today's culture wars in Denmark, a protestor with a sign saying 'Racism is little dick energy' was accused of body shaming. Thrilling debates were had, intellectual sparks flying in the marketplace of ideas

i saw a girl walking with that exact sign at a protest in berlin last saturday, tbh i also thought it to be a dumb slogan.

 

[entertainment]

It sometimes gives me a false sense of security too as all the positive responses I see to people like Trump are blatantly bots and it lulls me into thinking there aren't actually millions of people out there who genuinely support him.

I don't think I've tapped into the real far right spheres of twitter. Would be interesting. Culture war speaking, I have some jordan peterson / sam harris type people I follow, some marxists and some radical id pol types.

Mostly Twitter just makes me frustrated and jaded, like i'm loosing footing, adrift in an atomised archipelago of viewpoints and opinions.

 

[version]

We seem to have a steadily increasing number of Fox News-esque commentators appearing over here now, Katie Hopkins being the prime example.

 

[version]

I don't think I've tapped into the real far right spheres of twitter.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm on about the endless stream of accounts called stuff like AMERICAN PATRIOT #TRUMP2020 that respond to every tweet he does.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I wouldn't be surprised if the English had done something like that to the Irish, but I've no clue.

yes, the official dispossession of Irish Catholics is comparable

unsurprisingly it is (besides Jews, it's own special case) the Western European situation that most closely approaches American racism, and so you hear about the 800 years etc sometimes

and when they came to America, the Irish were at the bottom of the white totem pole but crucially, still above black people (whence the New York draft riots etc - the Irish had the most to fear from being undercut by free black labor), as in America race was more important than class

there was never mass racially-based slavery in Europe - yall ancestors kept that, and their many other despicable practices, in the colonies

 

[yyaldrin]

Ah. I'm not sure re: policies on that level in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if the English had done something like that to the Irish, but I've no clue.

originally it meant the systemic denial of housing loans to black people - during the Depression, the federal govt decided to start insuring mortgage loans, to make home ownership significantly more feasible for more Americans. there was a massive survey of urban neighborhoods to determine the risk level of real-estate investments. the least desirable/highest risk neighborhoods - very often, black neighborhoods - were shaded (or possibly outlined) in red. over time it came to more broadly mean any official policy that denies services to or systemically discriminates against POC, i.e. environmental racism.

I was just saying I doubt there have historically been policies on that level in Europe - numerically significant racial minorities in most European countries is relatively recent, I think?

I wouldn't doubt that there have been racist policies on an informal or local level, especially in areas with high numbers of POC/immigrants

the dutch national institute for statistics has a tool that measures the "liveability" of neighbourhoods. based on the rating, policy is made. one of the negative indicators is the percentage of "migrants with a non-western origin".

 

[version]

yall ancestors kept that, and their many other despicable practices, in the colonies

“Colonies are the outhouses of the European soul, where a fellow can let his pants down and relax, enjoy the smell of his own shit.”

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

something like 13% of Americans are black. depending how Latinos self-identify (a significant number do as white) somewhere between 30-40% of the country is in a racial minority. Europe simply doesn't have anything approaching that. France is ~5% POC. I don't remember the UK but it's significantly less still, and concentrated in a handful of cities.

of course there's not going to be comparable systemic racism