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simon silverdollar
11-05-2005, 10:38 AM
so i was in rough trade yesterday, flicking through their sale section, and came across a cd by someone i'd forgotten even existed: funki porcini...

which got me thinking about the almost visceral reaction i have to things that claim to be 'funky'. it's so instantly repellent to me: it puts things completely beyond the pale.

so many bad things seem to be bound up in the notion of 'funkiness', in that it tends to be the self-description of wacky muso types unwittingly (or not) removing themselves from the things that made the music that supposedly influenced them interesting and fun, OR the kind of description that dickhead tv presenters give music that's Just Weird Enough.

dance music made by and for people who don't dance. dance music made by and for people who aren't on the right drugs. and wackiness, always wackiness.


which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?

(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)

Diggedy Derek
11-05-2005, 11:02 AM
I always liked the Beastie Boys' criterea which they applied to funk 7"s- it goes something like "if it has funky in the title, it almost certainly isn't. However if it has freaky in the title, it almost certainly is".

soul_pill
11-05-2005, 11:12 AM
What about 'Funky Funk Funk' by Reese?

bassnation
11-05-2005, 12:06 PM
so many bad things seem to be bound up in the notion of 'funkiness', in that it tends to be the self-description of wacky muso types unwittingly (or not) removing themselves from the things that made the music that supposedly influenced them interesting and fun

4 hero being a case in point. how could they change from being the most cutting-edge avant garde rave outfit (that were so far ahead at the time that they left a lot of ravers confused) to end up doing slick note-perfect covers of jazz funk classics? utterly disapointing.

i guess it depends how you define funk. is it defined by the sonic cliches of rhodes keyboards, wine bar grooves - a yearning for "authenticity" & "sophistication", harking back to an era of vituoso musicallity - almost like a lot of electronic artists feel like their work isn't real music or something.

as soon as i hear something with these cliches, it makes me want to retch, the same as you. but on the other hand, i like a lot of what i would call music that is funky, even if its not labelled as such. i'm including things like jungle, electro, even jacking house tracks in this. i like to believe its the spirit of funk thats being embraced here rather than some boring retrogressive jazz samples.

Jim Daze
11-05-2005, 12:41 PM
In Brighton funk is like a virus that has penetrated the root core of the towns musical night life, there are literally hundreds of funk nights.

I feel your pain Simon.

Rachel Verinder
11-05-2005, 01:03 PM
About 4Hero; it seems to be a failing of cutting-edge British black music that artists seem duty bound to "mature" and make "real" music. Thus the similar groans which emanated from yours truly when faced with albums in the '90s by the likes of Peshay and Grooverider - aargh! those Nordic winds! those Herbie Hancock Fender Rhodes chords! The new Roll Deep album's a bit like that as well (and from what I've heard of the tracks Stevie Nixed posted up, ditto the Lady Sovereign album); why in the name of all that is holy should they want to try and make a Proper R&B Record? I mean, it worked wonders for So Solid, didn't it? How many weeks was it before that second album of theirs was remaindered in HMV for 5.99? Two? Three?

gumdrops
11-05-2005, 03:13 PM
i seriously think wiley might just be the funkiest producer in grime, right now. apart from some of the other older producers like geeneus. terror danjah, some of his stuff is funky too, but a lot of grime isnt really funky at all (stuff like tings in boots or take you out) to my dissapointment. i think its down to the producers trying to be over melodic when theyve got little musical dexterity. wiley doesnt overdo the melodic element in his music like a lot of rapid beats, he keeps it tight and rhythmic, for the most part. not wanting to turn this into a grime-bashing post or anything, just following up on the black british music theme. some broken beat is pretty funky, a lot of is far too quasi-sophisticated for its own good though.

hint
11-05-2005, 03:47 PM
i seriously think wiley might just be the funkiest producer in grime, right now. apart from some of the other older producers like geeneus. terror danjah, some of his stuff is funky too, but a lot of grime isnt really funky at all (stuff like tings in boots or take you out) to my dissapointment.

agreed - wiley, danny weed and terror danjah all have a swing in their beats that is certainly lacking in a lot of uk underground productions. but, having said that, I'm not sure that a lot of grime is made with dancing in mind.


not wanting to turn this into a grime-bashing post or anything, just following up on the black british music theme. some broken beat is pretty funky, a lot of is far too quasi-sophisticated for its own good though.

absolutely... but I don't agree with this idea that it's quasi- this or "mature" and "real" that... remember that a lot of these guys (dego, bugz etc) aren't exactly teenagers. they're not trying to be mature, it just comes out naturally.

many broken beat heads see this kind of "mature music for mature musicians" tag as a badge of honour... I think it's a dead end, personally - particularly since it's often pushed as a dancefloor thing.

occasional curveballs such as dego's this ain't tom and jerry or mark force's gypo will always pop up to remind you of their pedigree in the early UK dance scene, but on the whole I think both the artists and a certain section of the fans have a bit of a "been there, done that" attitude to rave / party music.

bassnation
11-05-2005, 03:50 PM
About 4Hero; it seems to be a failing of cutting-edge British black music that artists seem duty bound to "mature" and make "real" music. Thus the similar groans which emanated from yours truly when faced with albums in the '90s by the likes of Peshay and Grooverider - aargh! those Nordic winds! those Herbie Hancock Fender Rhodes chords! The new Roll Deep album's a bit like that as well (and from what I've heard of the tracks Stevie Nixed posted up, ditto the Lady Sovereign album); why in the name of all that is holy should they want to try and make a Proper R&B Record? I mean, it worked wonders for So Solid, didn't it? How many weeks was it before that second album of theirs was remaindered in HMV for 5.99? Two? Three?

agree with you there - apart from a minor quibble - its not just black music that succumbs to this, and i'd also resist pigeonholing 4 hero like that - jungle included everyone remember, thats what was so strong and liberating about it.

gumdrops
11-05-2005, 04:10 PM
agreed - wiley, danny weed and terror danjah all have a swing in their beats that is certainly lacking in a lot of uk underground productions. but, having said that, I'm not sure that a lot of grime is made with dancing in mind.

it doesnt really matter, i dont think wiley or targets or terror's beats are made with dancing in mind either, but they arent mechanical, robotic, stiff, or so ahem, 'effortless' (not in the good way) sounding as a lot of guys beats.


absolutely... but I don't agree with this idea that it's quasi- this or "mature" and "real" that... remember that a lot of these guys (dego, bugz etc) aren't exactly teenagers. they're not trying to be mature, it just comes out naturally.

agreed but it doesnt mean they have to buy into that whole idea of maturity = boring, devoid of energy, no rough edges, etc etc. not saying they should age ungracefully, just not feel because they ARE mature, that they have to start sounding like a rotary connection tribute act and exemplify sophistication, 'classiness' and all the rest of it.


many broken beat heads see this kind of "mature music for mature musicians" tag as a badge of honour... I think it's a dead end, personally - particularly since it's often pushed as a dancefloor thing.


they do, absolutely. a lot of them actually seem to want broken beat to turn into full-on live music again, or at least more musical, and not so programmed/dancey etc etc, as thats what the aim is, i suppose. thats still seen as the pinnacle of musical achievement. i was actualy chatting to a producer from west london the other week who said he thought more BB guys going 'musical' was what he wanted to see.


occasional curveballs such as dego's this ain't tom and jerry or mark force's gypo will always pop up to remind you of their pedigree in the early UK dance scene, but on the whole I think both the artists and a certain section of the fans have a bit of a "been there, done that" attitude to rave / party music.

well, broken beat IS still dance-music, just not a 'direct', instantaneous one. ive seen everyone dance to 4hero and things like that at neo soul-type nights. so broken beat is kinda fulfilling the role for people who want modern black dance music but like the old 70s template too. shame a lot of it sometimes bears a few too many traces of fuzak or 80s/90s 'light' soul and jazz.

im behind on broken beat though so who knows what its sounding like these days.

Blackdown
11-05-2005, 04:13 PM
funky house. *shudder*

gumdrops
11-05-2005, 04:35 PM
amp fiddler.

hint
11-05-2005, 04:56 PM
well, broken beat IS still dance-music, just not a 'direct', instantaneous one. ive seen everyone dance to 4hero and things like that at neo soul-type nights. so broken beat is kinda fulfilling the role for people who want modern black dance music but like the old 70s template too. shame a lot of it sometimes bears a few too many traces of fuzak or 80s/90s 'light' soul and jazz.

sure - that's why I was careful to use the words "rave / party music". I don't dispute the fact that there are pockets in clubland where this music is making people dance and cheer... I support it as much as I can - the same goes for grime. in both genres there are tracks which just work (with the kinds of crowds I play to), all around the world... but you have to tread carefully, even with the scene "anthems".

simon silverdollar
11-05-2005, 06:09 PM
i guess it depends how you define funk. is it defined by the sonic cliches of rhodes keyboards, wine bar grooves - a yearning for "authenticity" & "sophistication", harking back to an era of vituoso musicallity - almost like a lot of electronic artists feel like their work isn't real music or something.

as soon as i hear something with these cliches, it makes me want to retch, the same as you. but on the other hand, i like a lot of what i would call music that is funky, even if its not labelled as such. i'm including things like jungle, electro, even jacking house tracks in this. i like to believe its the spirit of funk thats being embraced here rather than some boring retrogressive jazz samples.

well my problem isn't with 'funky' stuff in the sense of rhythmic stuff that's good to dance to. obviously that's a good thing.

my problem is with music that is specifically referred to as 'funky'; that's what always raises alarm bells. it's usually this fatal combination of pseudo-'sophistication', with smirking, emotionally dead archness.

oh, and fuck the cult of 'rare groove' as well.

blissblogger
11-05-2005, 06:31 PM
the funny thing about funk is that originally it didn't mean slick, jazzy-noodly, elegant etc -- it meant dirty, raw, stripped down, gritty, earthy etc etc

funk in that original sense like sly stone or the meters or james brown is fantastic... or later P-funk in their synth-bass stage

a lot of early 70s hard 'n' heavy rock is actually really funky -- the drums in sabbath's 'war pigs' are virtually breakbeats (and in fact get sampled on the Kano album!), groups like James Gang ('funk #49'.. ), aerosmith, led zep 'black dog'... not forgetting Can...

actually the late 70s jazzy-slick funk can be pretty neat, roy ayers did some real groovy-spacy stuff that makes me see why 4hero bukem et al are so hung-up on that period as the Golden Age

but otherwise, totally concur with the Other Simon

funki porcini has got to be one of the most stomach turning names ever -- the two 'i''s!

trip hop turned so quick from something so great to something so awful

dominic
11-05-2005, 06:53 PM
What about 'Funky Funk Funk' by Reese?

not the least bit funky in my opinion

however, i think "funky zulu" by the moody boys is ultra funky

jenks
11-05-2005, 07:06 PM
agree to the idea that if it has funky in the titile and is post 78 it probably isn't cf the headhunters god made me funky with the latest black eyed peas 'phunk' single - let the listener be the judge of that which is funky

dominic
11-05-2005, 07:12 PM
but on the whole I think both the artists and a certain section of the fans [of the broken beats scene] have a bit of a "been there, done that" attitude to rave / party music.

yeah, that's my sense of it as well

they were "there" when it happened -- they made it happen -- and now they've moved on

tis a shame that what they've moved on to is so boring . . . .

but what you can you say?

try to convince someone who understands things better than you do -- i.e., they did it first and they had the best scene ever -- that you're right and they're wrong???

dominic
11-05-2005, 07:17 PM
i think "funky zulu" by the moody boys is ultra funky

errrr, this is despite the fact that you could probably cite this song as a precursor for the really lame "wackiness" of so much trip hop

bun-u
11-05-2005, 07:47 PM
yes, I get what you mean simon....the word 'funk' has been appropriated and now means all things horrible. especially annoying is it's use in a non-music context, like 'hey that's kinda funky!' I refused to speak to someone at work for the rest of the day when they described a project as funky.

michael
11-05-2005, 11:47 PM
Yeah, I cringe at contemporary stuff being described as "funky" too. I reckon there's a strong parallel with "jazzy" and "jazz". Both jazz and funk encompass a wide range of things, some shit, some good, according to taste, but both "jazzy" and "funky" seem to be used to describe only music that is faintly derived from the worst aspects of those genres. Normally way too polite?

Omaar
12-05-2005, 03:24 AM
Yeah, I cringe at contemporary stuff being described as "funky" too. I reckon there's a strong parallel with "jazzy" and "jazz". Both jazz and funk encompass a wide range of things, some shit, some good, according to taste, but both "jazzy" and "funky" seem to be used to describe only music that is faintly derived from the worst aspects of those genres. Normally way too polite?

Same with 'laidback'. Or even worse, a combination of the above, as in 'laidback funky groove'.

Having said that, i'm a big fan of a lot stuff that was in the r&b charts in the 70s, 80s. Not a big fan off stuf on the fusion-acid jazz-trip hop-broken beat continuum though, basically for reasons other people have already given here.

Ness Rowlah
12-05-2005, 04:40 AM
would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'?

DEFUNKT (which is early 80s and very funky).

I had no idea Joe Bowie (and Kim Clarke on bass) was still going (so thanks for mentioning the word)
- but here they are http://www.defunktmusic.com/defunkt.htm

Funk like this is possibly the next 80s treasurechest to be dug into (not heard anything post-1992, that
"new sound" might not neccesarily be good, but the early stuff is (how many times have you heard that one - "but the early stuff is good" ...)).

Backjob
12-05-2005, 06:01 AM
I hear what everybody says about the word "funky" and to a certain extent, self-consciously funky music. It's at a low ebb right now fashion-wise, and all the associations are deeply embarrassing.

BUT MASSIVE CAVEAT

Music that is actually funky, that has a bit of looseness and sex to it is fucking great, and is an essential part of the clubbing experience. To me, the fact that "funk" as a descriptor is so taboo now in most trendy club music scenes is exactly why people flock to hip hop nights and not to minimal house ones. We all like to get a bit lagered up and pretend to fuck on the dancefloor at some level.

And quietly, labels like Sonar Kollektiv and GAMM are putting out great stuff that is funky without having that bland tastefulness that characterises the worst side of broken beat, funky house, nu-soul etc.

I reckon, precisely because the good side of funk has been gone for so long (cf crunk, grime replacing gfunk, 2step style sounds) it's bound to come back with a vengeance pretty soon.

bassnation
12-05-2005, 10:36 AM
funki porcini has got to be one of the most stomach turning names ever -- the two 'i''s!

talking of funki porcini, i read in the paper the other day that the producer behind it was married to jenny tonge mp's daughter - that woman who got fatally electrocuted by faulty wiring on her dishwasher. apparently he was off to the airport on his way to some gig when it happened. very sad. nothing to do with what we are talking about here, but there you go.


trip hop turned so quick from something so great to something so awful

back in the days when i used to rave every weekend (by this i mean getting nutted on regular basis instead of the mortgaged-up responsible existence that i currently lead), every bloody chillout after a party there was the obligatory ninja tune cd getting rinsed out. i always wanted to listen to something banging but my friends wouldn't have it. as a result every time i hear some trip hop it reminds me of coming down off ecstasy and generally feeling shit. quite appropriate, really.

bassnation
12-05-2005, 10:41 AM
yeah, that's my sense of it as well

they were "there" when it happened -- they made it happen -- and now they've moved on

but they haven't moved on, they've moved backwards and are clumisly emulating some hipster checklist of jazz funk artists from the past.

its a total lack of imagination, almost like they want to disown their rave stuff. if broken beat was the only music in existence i'd rather lose my hearing altogether than suffer it.

having said that, sejji loose lips rocks - but theres not much else i've heard from that scene that doesn't make me cringe and think of acid jazz, goatees and black roll-necks. fuck all that.

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 11:08 AM
i cant help thinking this anti-broken beat attitude stems from people disliking black music that's remotely 'smooth'. its like an inverted snobbery. some good things DID emerge from the rare groove scene - omar, mica paris (their duet is a street soul classic), young disciples, jamiroquai (oh yes!), and so on. they werent fuzak-like to me, but then again, neither is all broken beat. the sun by new sector movements is great. the bugz and original mix of 4hero's hold it down (despite the clunky lyrics) is excellent too. kaidi tatham's feed the cat album is fantastic. i could go on.

xero
12-05-2005, 12:09 PM
yeah funky is a pretty debased term but so are many words that date back so long - I mean I pretty much cringe every time someone tells me that something rocks

hint
12-05-2005, 12:23 PM
but they haven't moved on, they've moved backwards and are clumisly emulating some hipster checklist of jazz funk artists from the past.

have you heard the cousin cockroach stuff?
the nutmeg stuff?
future rage (the single) by DKD?

dego, at least, is still doing his thing.

the stuff you're referring to is his more accessible output and therefore gets more coverage. no change there, then - people are still playing catchup to a certain extent. I don't think broken beat will ever catch on in the same way d'n'b did, but I for one hear things in the best tracks that no-one else has done / is doing in music.

Pearsall
12-05-2005, 12:31 PM
I have no idea about broken beat...what is worth listening to?

I sort of tuned out on 4 Hero after '2 Pages'...what are they up to today?

bassnation
12-05-2005, 12:50 PM
jamiroquai (oh yes!)

i rest my case.

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 01:05 PM
i blame the mainstream rock press who know nothing about soul or funk for the 'oasis of funk/soul' reputation jamiroquai have gotten. their first two-three albums were really well received by soul/R&B' fans at the time they arrived.

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 01:13 PM
i blame the mainstream rock press who know nothing about soul or funk for the 'oasis of funk/soul' reputation jamiroquai have gotten. their first two-three albums were really well received by soul/R&B' fans at the time they arrived.

jenks
12-05-2005, 01:27 PM
even if you say it three times i'm still not buying it ;)

Chef Napalm
12-05-2005, 01:54 PM
I sort of tuned out on 4 Hero after '2 Pages'...what are they up to today?
Remixing, apparently. I quite like their remix (http://wma.juno.co.uk/ASF/SF170437-01-01-01.wma) of Plant Life's "When She Smiles She Lights the Sky" (http://www.juno.co.uk/ppps/products/170437-01.htm).

AshRa
12-05-2005, 03:02 PM
Remixing, apparently. I quite like their remix (http://wma.juno.co.uk/ASF/SF170437-01-01-01.wma) of Plant Life's "When She Smiles She Lights the Sky" (http://www.juno.co.uk/ppps/products/170437-01.htm).

And fantastic 70s-flavoured techno as Nu Era - Broken Techno EP (http://www.discogs.com/release/4869) / Some Think Electronic Version 1.0 (http://www.discogs.com/release/216413). Although these are both a bit old now, they're still my favourite techno records of recent times (apart from JAMAL MOSS!)

hint
12-05-2005, 03:21 PM
4hero-related projects:

DKD
nutmeg
cousin cockroach
pavel koustik
tek 9
da one away
nature's plan
tom and jerry
nu era (spot on about jamal moss too!)

visioneers
silhouette brown

those last two certainly fall into the category that everyone's venting about above... but the others...?

ladyboygrimsby
12-05-2005, 03:24 PM
i blame the mainstream rock press who know nothing about soul or funk for the 'oasis of funk/soul' reputation jamiroquai have gotten. their first two-three albums were really well received by soul/R&B' fans at the time they arrived.


It's nice to hear such opinions being voiced on this forum. I agree with you. Sure, plenty of broken beat is fusion-y twaddle, but some of it is amazing, like Seiji's Loose Lips, which is as good a record as anyone's made in the past five years.

I sense a very middle class inverted snobbery about a certain types of black music being expressed here.I like smooth black-produced music. I don't see a problem with liking a bit of crunk AND liking the Chi-Lites or Stylistics.

;)

robin
12-05-2005, 03:30 PM
while i'll agree that a lot of music which describes itself as funky is pretty dodgy,at least in recent times,i think early nineties dre produced g-funk is a notable exception

bassnation
12-05-2005, 03:36 PM
I sense a very middle class inverted snobbery about a certain types of black music being expressed here.I like smooth black-produced music. I don't see a problem with liking a bit of crunk AND liking the Chi-Lites or Stylistics. ;)

lol, why is there this assumption that everyone on this forum is middle class? i grew up on a council estate and still don't like jazz funk fusion, so where does that leave your theory, eh? ;)

besides, no-one is having a go at chi-lites, just the smug wine-bar fusion side of things.

just as a point of interest, when was the last tek9 or tom & jerry project? i've got some t&j from 1994, but thats abotu it.

blissblogger
12-05-2005, 04:15 PM
>nutmeg
>cousin cockroach
>pavel koustik
>da one away
>nature's plan
>visioneers
>silhouette brown


just the names alone tell me everything i need to know [shudder]

no but seriously at some point (jacob's opptical stairway probly) 4 hero got stuck on this one synth sound, that sort of shimmer-squelch, didn't they -- i can't remember the precise track but i was listening to a roy ayers best of and there it was The Synth Sound, the one they're fixated on, i was like "aha!"

i've got no problems with slick, some of my favorite black music, whether it's Earth wind Fire or SOS Band or Zapp or whatever, is slick -- almost by definition black music is slick innit (there's no black equivalent of Swell Maps, no cult of sloppy or amateurism, it just doesn't compute), it's almost always aiming for supertight perfection and dazzle

what some of us are railing (slight exaggeration) about isn't slickness, it's tepidity and a sort of fussy noodly quality and a kind of over-exaggerated lightness of touch that's pretty prissy

and of course, compared with the sheer grind of crunk or even grime, a lot of the soi-disant funkoid stuff isn't actually that funky

this discussion is reminding me of the genuine shock i got when Matt outed himself, in the twilight days of woebot, as a onetime acid-jazz afficianado!

hint
12-05-2005, 04:42 PM
at some point (jacob's opptical stairway probly) 4 hero got stuck on this one synth sound, that sort of shimmer-squelch, didn't they -- i can't remember the precise track but i was listening to a roy ayers best of and there it was The Synth Sound, the one they're fixated on, i was like "aha!"...[snip]... what some of us are railing (slight exaggeration) about isn't slickness, it's tepidity and a sort of fussy noodly quality and a kind of over-exaggerated lightness of touch that's pretty prissy

I know exactly what you mean and acknowledge that there is a high noodle content in a lot of music that is termed "broken beat". I also avoid it and occasionally even rib my friends who lap it up. but I've always maintained that the genre is a bit of a mongrel anyway. most of it doesn't need a new tag at all - there's a lot of smooth house, techno and uptempo r'n'b being labelled as broken beat and it's going to kill off any scene that there is, sooner or later.

I guess my point is that what I personally class as a (good) broken beat record is certainly not going to be tepid, fussy or prissy and I think it's wrong that people are dismissing these records because they didn't like the last 4Hero LP. I'd draw a parallel here with people procaliming that they either like or dislike grime solely as a result of hearing the M.I.A. LP (apologies for bringing it up again). if you listen to grime that makes no sense.



and of course, compared with the sheer grind of crunk or even grime, a lot of the soi-disant funkoid stuff isn't actually that funky

sure. funk = excitement rather than just entertainment or pleasure.

borderpolice
12-05-2005, 04:44 PM
almost by definition black music is slick innit

early hiphop? booty, miami bass? bad brains? funk carioca? dub? early house? getto-tec?

Pearsall
12-05-2005, 04:50 PM
I guess my point is that what I personally class as a (good) broken beat record is certainly not going to be tepid, fussy or prissy and I think it's wrong that people are dismissing these records because they didn't like the last 4Hero LP. I'd draw a parallel here with people procaliming that they either like or dislike grime solely as a result of hearing the M.I.A. LP (apologies for bringing it up again). if you listen to grime that makes no sense.


I wasn't saying that I was dismissing it because of the last 4 Hero album, merely that I'd stopped paying attention to their work after that (snoozeworthy) effort.

bassnation
12-05-2005, 04:56 PM
I wasn't saying that I was dismissing it because of the last 4 Hero album, merely that I'd stopped paying attention to their work after that (snoozeworthy) effort.

there were some good tunes on that album - i'm thinking about the more industrial reinforced style dnb efforts - but the jazzy stuff - yuck.

Pearsall
12-05-2005, 04:58 PM
there were some good tunes on that album - i'm thinking about the more industrial reinforced style dnb efforts - but the jazzy stuff - yuck.

Yeah, weren't there two parts to it, one jazzy/fusiony and one Reinforced-style? I sold my copy off a while ago.

ladyboygrimsby
12-05-2005, 05:05 PM
lol, why is there this assumption that everyone on this forum is middle class? i grew up on a council estate and still don't like jazz funk fusion, so where does that leave your theory, eh? ;)

besides, no-one is having a go at chi-lites, just the smug wine-bar fusion side of things.

just as a point of interest, when was the last tek9 or tom & jerry project? i've got some t&j from 1994, but thats abotu it.


I'm not suggesting everyone on the forum is middle class (though I'd wager the majority are), but there is an argument - and I'm not saying everyone here subscribes to it - that suggests that the gritty urban sound of, say, grime, evokes black youth better than broken beat does, probably because it sounds disenfranchised.

In many ways, what 4Hero and Bugz In The Attic and all those guys are doing is a continuum that goes back as far as Crackers in the early 70s, with the jazz dancing and continues right through to the Horseshoe, Electric Ballroom and Dingwalls up to now. Personally, I don't care for the more fusion end of broken beat, but this stuff is as valid and real as grime and it has genuine roots in the black community, certainly in London (and Bristol and Manchester) that go back 30 years.

I don't necessarily think that all black music aspire to slickness at all. Most funk records are anything but slick, James Brown stuff might be tight but I wouldn't describe it as slick. I don't know whether that's simply a case of the studios that were available back then or an aesthetic choice in the control room, though. Who knows? I think it's a natural working class aspiration, though, to want to simulate and emulate symbols of wealth and that's certainly something evident in black music culture from Berry Gordy and Chic to hip hop's bling.

I like Acid Jazz, too. Well some of it. Stories by Izit is a classic. :p

blissblogger
12-05-2005, 05:05 PM
>early hiphop? booty, miami bass? bad brains? funk carioca? dub? early house? getto-tec?

touche, and i was wondering if anyone was going to come back at me for that massive generalisation!

however, i would say this: there's black music that's lo-fi of necessity but i don't think it ever makes a virtue or a fetish of sloppiness etc in the way that white alt-rockers from nyc punk rock to swell maps to pavement to... do

with early hip hop and dub and early house the lo-fi hiss and crackle is just a byproduct of the means of production available to them, they were going for the best sound they could get from their gear

yeah you're right w/ the booty-bass-baile continuum, i spose

but Bad Brains actually is proof positive of my point, those guys were incredibly slick musicians! before being Bad Brains they were a jazz-rock fusion band called Mind Power! when you saw them live even at their most hardcore you could tell they had amazing fluency and technique, and HR's singing had this weird blend of snarl and exquisite delicacy

that's one of the hallmarks (and downfalls, often) of black rock, they're all so into technique and the virtuoso trip

like Vernon Reid with his Eddie Van Halen fetish and desire "to more smoothly incorporate intervallic skips into my playing"

captain easychord
12-05-2005, 05:06 PM
can't help but bring up the new school breaks' thing with funkiness. it's this fetishization taken to the n'th degree where every single DJ has not only "funk" in their name, but the dreaded "phunk". phat, phunk.... so cheesy.

hint
12-05-2005, 05:06 PM
I wasn't saying that I was dismissing it because of the last 4 Hero album, merely that I'd stopped paying attention to their work after that (snoozeworthy) effort.

yeah - sorry... that was unfair, I didn't mean to address you directly with that comment.

I was clumsily attempting to make the wider observation that there's more to the broken beat genre than the previous (or even current) form of some of the leading artists might suggest. they use different names for a reason.

dominic
12-05-2005, 05:38 PM
there's black music that's lo-fi of necessity but i don't think it ever makes a virtue or a fetish of sloppiness etc in the way that white alt-rockers from nyc punk rock to swell maps to pavement to... do

with early hip hop and dub and early house the lo-fi hiss and crackle is just a byproduct of the means of production available to them, they were going for the best sound they could get from their gear

yes, but they often make a virtue of "ruffness," though they use technique to achieve a ruff sound -- indeed, why do so many acts put "ruff" in their name if they're not very consciously striving to achieve such a sound -- and this is true of hip hop to dancehall to grime and back to breakbeat hardcore, i.e., so many acts and labels calling themselves ruff

the other intentionally anti-virtuosic aspect of some black music is "rawness" -- and to my mind a lot of early house was quite self-consciously raw -- e.g., in a song like lnr's "work it to the bone," the chant refers not only to dancers working it on the floor but also to the raw sound of the track

of course as soon as most house producers had the technology in hand, they began to make lush & deep productions -- even so i think that rawness remains a quality that many black producers intentionally try to capture

dominic
12-05-2005, 05:58 PM
In many ways, what 4Hero and Bugz In The Attic and all those guys are doing is a continuum that goes back as far as Crackers in the early 70s, with the jazz dancing and continues right through to the Horseshoe, Electric Ballroom and Dingwalls up to now. Personally, I don't care for the more fusion end of broken beat, but this stuff is as valid and real as grime and it has genuine roots in the black community, certainly in London (and Bristol and Manchester) that go back 30 years.

i think ladyboy grimsby is on the mark with this comment

and wasn't there a (prematurely aborted) thread on dissensus about the hardcore continuum stretching back before breakbeat hardcore into "ragga hip hop" and adrian sherwood-type stuff -- and then back to what?

that is, maybe in the uk there's been 30 years of fusion-y black sounds, and perhaps 20 years or so of hardcore sounds . . . .

not sure how this works out in usa and jamaica

maybe white folks prefer the more hardcore sounds b/c such sounds are more akin to rock'n'roll = iggy pop and so forth

OR RATHER, perhaps we're using a white rock paradigm to make sense of black music

grime & breakbeat hardcore = iggy pop & garage rock

slick broken beats stuff = ?????? -- or perhaps this music is in some ways too black in that it evades easy comparison to white musical expression ----- or perhaps it's akin to phil collins or the west coast jazz noodlings of dave brubeck and others

(and yet shouldn't the challenge be to understand black music on its own terms? or is it rather the case that even though black music has shaped all popular music for past 200 years or so, certain aspects of the black music experience are inaccessible to outsiders? -- which is to say that whites necessarily translate black music into more familiar terms? -- or am i needlessly resorting to mystification?)

Pearsall
12-05-2005, 06:11 PM
slick broken beats stuff = ?????? -- or perhaps this music is in some ways too black in that it evades easy comparison to white musical expression ----- or perhaps it's akin to phil collins or the west coast jazz noodlings of dave brubeck and others

I would have thought that it's kind of easy drawing white comparisons.

The fetishizing of technical virtuosity = Jam bands and IDM.

Fetishizing (and ripping) off a particular sort of 1970's/early 80's sound = Post-post-punk

Beerbellied table-poundin' "real music for grown-ups" rhetoric = Several million modern white musicians doing curatorial country, rock, and dance music (ie Nuphonic-style 'dad house')

dominic
12-05-2005, 06:26 PM
I would have thought that it's kind of easy drawing white comparisons

the comparisons you make are reasonable -- but not convincing (though i can't for the moment say why i'm not convinced)

HOWEVER, to get back to ladyboy's point -- isn't it rather the case that hardcore sounds are structurally related to fusion-y sounds -- i.e, the fusion sounds antedate the hardcore sounds = you can only go hardcore in response to fusion

so maybe the moments are as follows:

(1) original funky music

(2) sophisticated fusion sounds

(3) hardcore sounds

such that all black music moves through these moments, participates in this argument

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 06:36 PM
however, i would say this: there's black music that's lo-fi of necessity but i don't think it ever makes a virtue or a fetish of sloppiness etc in the way that white alt-rockers from nyc punk rock to swell maps to pavement to... do

yes, black music values professionalism, good playing, tight musicianship etc (what do you expect though - the white masses declared that black music wasnt 'real' music which must have been ingrained on some level in the minds of many black musicians so maybe they tried their best to counter that acusation by playing as good as possible)

but to go against the generalisation, how about: prince (dirty mind, the mixes for sign o the times were pretty demo-like if not actually lo-fi in a beck sense), funkadelic, sly stone, dangelo circa voodoo, virtually all east coast hip hop from 84 or thereabouts (run dmc's first LP) to 1994... all these people purposely made a point of being sloppy, loose, etc etc. you can probably also include many early rural blues artists (rock critics and fans tend to prefer their blues acoustic or rough rather than the stuff made by big bands and blues queens that was more popular and 'tighter').

dominic
12-05-2005, 06:58 PM
The fetishizing of technical virtuosity = Jam bands and IDM.

or you could say it's a jazz thing


Fetishizing (and ripping) off a particular sort of 1970's/early 80's sound = Post-post-punk

except that the broken beats thing is not so much a new retro phenomenon, but as was said upthread a "new name" for long-existing currents in urban soul and house music -- and the artists and fans see this music as constantly pushing things forward -- incrementally so, but still forward

whereas retro-post-punk is a self-conscious return after many years spent away from the source material -- and it isn't taking anything forward


Beerbellied table-poundin' "real music for grown-ups" rhetoric = Several million modern white musicians doing curatorial country, rock, and dance music (ie Nuphonic-style 'dad house')

this is the most valid but also the most sweeping point that you make

maybe the "real music for grown ups" thing has something to do w/ young turks realizing that they're part of a community that extends back in time -- i.e., they begin as hardcore operators, but they eventually assume the concerns of their progenitors (and with dance music, it all goes back to the 70s, i.e., when you first had discotheques and dance music as such)

again, i say all of this despite my pronounced preference for the rough and the raw

and when it comes to more "mature" dance sounds, i prefer classic knuckles/morales stuff or balearic stuff -- not anything new that strives for sophistication

Pearsall
12-05-2005, 07:24 PM
the comparisons you make are reasonable -- but not convincing (though i can't for the moment say why i'm not convinced)

They weren't meant to be like hyper-convincing, just silly.

blissblogger
12-05-2005, 07:56 PM
yes, black music values professionalism, good playing, tight musicianship etc (what do you expect though - but to go against the generalisation, how about: prince (dirty mind, the mixes for sign o the times were pretty demo-like if not actually lo-fi in a beck sense), funkadelic, sly stone, dangelo circa voodoo, virtually all east coast hip hop from 84 or thereabouts (run dmc's first LP) to 1994... all these people purposely made a point of being sloppy, loose, etc etc. you can probably also include many early rural blues artists (rock critics and fans tend to prefer their blues acoustic or rough rather than the stuff made by big bands and blues queens that was more popular and 'tighter').

i'm not sure prince is a good argument for the case that's there selfconsciously amateurish black music, surely he's all about daintiness and supreme skill... he might at various points use more lo-fi sounds, though, i'm not sure about though -- dirty mind isn't sloppy, it's uptight, neurotic New Wave/funk merger -- and i can't hear what you're saying in re. Sign of the Times, there's playing on there that's like Santana for chrissakes!

the thing about black music is that even when it's raw'n'ruff it's supertight -- look at james brown's tightly drilled funk regiments -- most of the players in P-funk were ace technically, surely (bootsy-as-jimi-of-bass guitar, worrell etc)... Sly Stone only goes from slick to slack with There Goes A Riot, which is all about being fucked up

re. dominic's point, it's a dialectic innit, back and forth between ruff 'n' smooth

also in re UK soulboyism and jazzfunk fandom, it's as much a white thing as a black thing... the ginger twat in Spandau Ballet, he would go on about how his favorite artists were Ronnie Laws and Gato Barbieri and Grover Washington... there was a whole jazzfunky culture based Robbie Vincent and souljazz weekenders... totally mixed racially ... Danny Baker wrote a piece in NME on this scene in which he started with a long rant about how failed-funky and dead-below-the-waist Gang of Four, A Certain Ratio and the rest of the avant-funk cru were, and how the true funk was on the furry-dice underground, bands like LIght of the World and Beggar & Co. i was supposed to be going on his show re. Rip It Up and was planning to bring it up (Beggar & Co, enduring musical reference point, eh, Dan?)

actually 'true working class soulboys' Spandau used Beggar & Co's horn section come to think of it

i would say that a more crucial determinant is class, slickness and foregrounded skill connoting 'qualiteee', 'the finer things in life', aspirationalism etc

this thing about understanding black music on its own terms is fine up to a point, but i think music's history is all about creative misunderstandings/misreadings by white folk of black music... and i don't really know if it's possible or desirable to somehow achieve a kind of preconception-free translucence of mind whereby you don't bring anything to the table when you listen to something

in other words, without our cultural biases, what would we actually be? where would we write from?

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 08:16 PM
without addressing each point individually right now, i just wanted to say that this idea that being conscious of what youre doing = art and not being conscious of it = accidental, i.e. no intelligence being used, they play by instinct, its all primal, etc etc seems a bit redolent of the age old idea that black art is merely oozed out while white art is 'intelligent' and the result of real thinking going on. im not sure if intent should be such a high factor in how we view the end result. ted nugent always thought of as the funk brothers from motown as playing really loose and free and as he depressingly put it 'like a nigger'. they on the other hand, likely thought of it as being tight, taut, and fierce. its always assumed isnt it that black musicians dont 'think' about anything they make (other than in jazz), while white artists, its assumed, do.

AshRa
12-05-2005, 08:43 PM
but to go against the generalisation, how about: prince (dirty mind, the mixes for sign o the times were pretty demo-like if not actually lo-fi in a beck sense), funkadelic, sly stone, dangelo circa voodoo, virtually all east coast hip hop from 84 or thereabouts (run dmc's first LP) to 1994... all these people purposely made a point of being sloppy, loose, etc etc.

But surely that's what makes THE FUNK isn't it - being so tight that you can do sloppy style with finesse...?

I can't think of anyone with more FUNK than the people you mentioned above (except JB of course)

dominic
12-05-2005, 09:57 PM
the thing about black music is that even when it's raw'n'ruff it's supertight

yes


also in re UK soulboyism and jazzfunk fandom, it's as much a white thing as a black thing...

whites participate in and contribute to every area of black music -- but it's still black music -- cf. thread on "urban music"

and when it becomes more of a white thing than a black thing then it's no longer black music -- it's something else -- call it "deracinated" or "gentrified," though these terms are too pejorative -- i.e., there's a lot of deracinated black music that i love


i would say that a more crucial determinant is class, slickness and foregrounded skill connoting 'qualiteee', 'the finer things in life', aspirationalism etc

yes -- this is the connotation

but i don't think that the middling classes prefer the one and the working classes the other

(which is not to deny that early jungle was a working class music movement -- merely that working class people often like slick sounds, and middle class people often like ruff n raw sounds)


i think music's history is all about creative misunderstandings/misreadings by white folk of black music...

certainly the modern history of pop music in the usa and england

and certainly a great deal of the music i like is along the lines of "creative misreadings" of black music by white people

i.e., i'm more of a musical anglophile than a fan of black music as such

i.e., there's a very weird exchange from black america to white britain to white america

or more recently, black atlantic to white britain to white america


and i don't really know if it's possible or desirable to somehow achieve a kind of preconception-free translucence of mind whereby you don't bring anything to the table when you listen to something

it's neither possible nor desirable

w/ language everything is explained in terms of something else

even so, w/ the commercial dominance of hip hop r'n'b in the states for the past 10 years, i wonder if that will allow the younger generation to have a more direct claim over black music -- or if the relationship will always be somehow "appropriative," i.e., trying to figure out and understand that which belongs to someone else

dominic
12-05-2005, 10:15 PM
i just wanted to say that this idea that being conscious of what youre doing = art and not being conscious of it = accidental, i.e. no intelligence being used, they play by instinct, its all primal, etc etc seems a bit redolent of the age old idea that black art is merely oozed out while white art is 'intelligent' and the result of real thinking going on. im not sure if intent should be such a high factor in how we view the end result . . . . its always assumed isnt it that black musicians dont 'think' about anything they make (other than in jazz), while white artists, its assumed, do.

errrr, i don't think anyone was making this suggestion

rather, i took blissblogger to mean that the ruffness & rawness of early jungle, early house, early hip hop, etc, was mainly a FUNCTION OF THE LIMITED TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS in the hands of the producers

(and of course this point is valid when you compare uk grime w/ us hip hop -- the latter have a lot more $ behind their productions, whereas as the former have much less $ and so have much rawer productions)

whereas i took the position that the ruffness and rawness of these sounds was in fact an aesthetic that was positively pursued and embraced -- i.e., consciously intended

the truth is somewhere in between

but nobody was taking the position that black music is unconscious, instinctive, etc, as compared with white music

dominic
12-05-2005, 10:38 PM
They weren't meant to be like hyper-convincing, just silly.

yeah -- i can get overly earnest in these discussions

but i still think there's no neat rock analogy for what broken beats is doing

maybe it's just like deep house (except lighter to the touch and more rhythmically inventive) -- a subculture going nowhere but with enough commitment from certain prime movers to remain in existence

blissblogger
12-05-2005, 10:44 PM
>but i don't think that the middling classes prefer the one and the working classes the other
>(which is not to deny that early jungle was a working class music movement -- merely that working class >people often like slick sounds, and middle class people often like ruff n raw sounds)

no, that's what i meant actually --- that the slick soulful-jazzy stuff had positive association as "classy' for a Southern working class jazz-funk... whereas as you say your more middle class types tend to valorize the raw'n'ruff'n'gritty etc etc

thanks Dom for answering the charge of imputing unselfconscious unreflecting instinctualness to black music, i don't know where that came from, and there's obviously a million examples of hyperconscious black musicians, i'm sure anthony braxton could match green gartside for cerebration (is that actually a noun, and if not why not?) and conceptualism anyday

a good example of these things playing out is blues... however much i know it's a cultural bias i can't help preferring the Stones version of it to say BB King's taut superslick playing

(although there's obviously an artfully concealed technique behind that sloppy-sounding stonesy style, e.g. something like 'start me up' doesn't just stumble into being, even if it sounds like like it's stumbling and drunkenly staggering)

there's a debate on ILM, an umpteenth go-round w/ rockism (the "It's Only Rock'n'Roll" of Rockism threads perhaps). one of the ideas being mooted is the idea of anti-rockism's project being to empty your mind of constructs and preconceptions in order to understand each form of music "on its own terms"... what does this mean? music doesn't come with readymade terms, those are endlessly renegotiable... that's what a creative response is isn't it, whether it's critical or musical in the form of being influenced or inspired....

or at least perhaps it is possible to do this, but the result is that kind of utterly self-effaced and humble 'curator/custodial' type approach to black/world/Other-sourced music, diligently researched and annotated but in the end too respectful to actually do anything ...

bassnation
12-05-2005, 11:37 PM
but nobody was taking the position that black music is unconscious, instinctive, etc, as compared with white music

you lot keep going on about how white music is like this, and black music like that. is it really that simple that we can just chop the music up and drop it into little pigeon holes?

what, these days is "white music" for fucks sake? screwdriver???

someone was going on about the jam as an example - a group that plays rock music ultimately coming from rnb which was mostly created by black musicians. or jungle, which despite djs like doc scott and lots of others, apparently is completely under the black banner. so where do we draw this illusory and exclusive line in the sand under your scheme of things? surely its more a complex web of influences. it just seems to ghettoise music and i'm not sure i want to buy into that.

everything seems to be divided by class, or if not class then race - or if we're really lucky, both. but as long as it allows us to connect it all in some grand overarching theory, then thats ok. or am i being overly cynical?

gumdrops
12-05-2005, 11:45 PM
errrr, i don't think anyone was making this suggestion

rather, i took blissblogger to mean that the ruffness & rawness of early jungle, early house, early hip hop, etc, was mainly a FUNCTION OF THE LIMITED TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS in the hands of the producers

(and of course this point is valid when you compare uk grime w/ us hip hop -- the latter have a lot more $ behind their productions, whereas as the former have much less $ and so have much rawer productions)

whereas i took the position that the ruffness and rawness of these sounds was in fact an aesthetic that was positively pursued and embraced -- i.e., consciously intended

the truth is somewhere in between

but nobody was taking the position that black music is unconscious, instinctive, etc, as compared with white music

i didnt say blissblogger said that explicitly, nor am i saying hes some musical right winger or anything, i was just saying that the whole argument ties into that, quite easily.

Pearsall
13-05-2005, 04:22 AM
you lot keep going on about how white music is like this, and black music like that. is it really that simple that we can just chop the music up and drop it into little pigeon holes?

what, these days is "white music" for fucks sake? screwdriver???

someone was going on about the jam as an example - a group that plays rock music ultimately coming from rnb which was mostly created by black musicians. or jungle, which despite djs like doc scott and lots of others, apparently is completely under the black banner. so where do we draw this illusory and exclusive line in the sand under your scheme of things? surely its more a complex web of influences. it just seems to ghettoise music and i'm not sure i want to buy into that.

everything seems to be divided by class, or if not class then race - or if we're really lucky, both. but as long as it allows us to connect it all in some grand overarching theory, then thats ok. or am i being overly cynical?

Yes, yes, and thrice yes!

Plus there seems to be this idea that black music is completely autonomous, that the communication is only one way (black->white). I've always found this a bit chin-scratching...as if in an America where blacks are outnumbered by whites 7 to 1 black musicians are never influenced by cultural things coming from the white majority! In the West, 'black' and 'white' styles of music are heavily heavily interrelated...shit is deeply connected on both sides of the line.

dominic
13-05-2005, 05:29 AM
this is the same issue as "urban music" versus "black music"

so i'm not sure if there's any point in rehashing the arguments that were made in that thread

yes, there are plenty of white people who participate in and contribute to black music

and yes, there are all sorts of debts owed on all sides via all kinds of pathways

but at the end of the day, these are the facts:

(1) there is black music as such -- hip hop, reggae, r'n'b, funk, soul, early jungle, early house

(2) music heavily influenced by black music = "creative misappropriation" by whites

(3) white music as such = classical music, country & western music, trance, gabba

and you could probably draw a chart of all kinds of genres moving from position 2 to position 3

e.g., heavy metal begins as white misappropriation of the blues, but it quickly moves to position 3

e.g., happy hardcore is position 3 music that has its origin in breakbeat hardcore -- and breakbeat hardcore was the ultimate creole music positioned somewhere b/w 1 and 2

e.g., drum n bass is position 3 music that developed out of positon 1 music, i.e., early jungle as position 1 music that owed debts to creole music and position 2 music

and yes, i realize that such a scheme is way too simplistic

but if you refuse to be simplistic, then at what price?

the price is that you end up expropriating blacks of their ownership of black music

so you end up replacing one kind of falsehood with an even worse falsehood

the new falsehood consisting in society's failure to recognize the qualitative difference b/w black and white contributions to modern popular music

b/c certainly black music and black artists have been the well spring, not white music

(it's the equivalent of forgetting that it was the russians who defeated nazi germany)

dominic
13-05-2005, 05:41 AM
Plus there seems to be this idea that black music is completely autonomous, that the communication is only one way (black->white)

lest we all have short memories, this is the position that blissblogger took in his debate with kirk degiorgio regarding detroit techno


In the West, 'black' and 'white' styles of music are heavily heavily interrelated...shit is deeply connected on both sides of the line.

isn't this really a "don't lose the forest for the trees" issue?

if you look at the trees, there's always going to be white musicians involved, white artists, etc

and if you look at still more trees, there's this guitar lick from this white rock song or this melody line from bacharach

and yet the forest is black

and certainly the preponderance of influence has run from black music to white music, and not vice versa

dominic
13-05-2005, 06:15 AM
no, that's what i meant actually --- that the slick soulful-jazzy stuff had positive association as "classy' for a Southern working class jazz-funk... whereas as you say your more middle class types tend to valorize the raw'n'ruff'n'gritty etc etc

actually i had it the other way around

such that jazz-funk is middle class

and rough n raw is working class

but fact that we're not even clear on which classes prefer which sounds goes to show that's it's more about connotation than constituency


a good example of these things playing out is blues... however much i know it's a cultural bias i can't help preferring the Stones version of it to say BB King's taut superslick playing

my sentiments exactly


or at least perhaps it is possible to do this, but the result is that kind of utterly self-effaced and humble 'curator/custodial' type approach to black/world/Other-sourced music, diligently researched and annotated but in the end too respectful to actually do anything ...

that's imitation from a distance

i suppose i'm waiting for the day that bassnation and pearsall evidently believe has arrived already

the day when it's no longer black music but the music of everyone who lives here or lives there

the day when distance is eliminated

i'm not sure that day will come any time soon

bassnation
13-05-2005, 10:37 AM
but at the end of the day, these are the facts:

(1) there is black music as such -- hip hop, reggae, r'n'b, funk, soul, early jungle, early house

(2) music heavily influenced by black music = "creative misappropriation" by whites

(3) white music as such = classical music, country & western music, trance, gabba


dominic, even country and western was influenced by music made by black musicians. even gabba is not as pure and as segregated as you appear to want it to be. hardcore was as white as it was black, and definitely more working class than anything else. there is nothing original under the sun.

so under your scheme of little boxes, when house arrived in the uk and you had people like 808 state creating british house music, was it still "black"? or did they bring something to do with the colour of their skin to the music? or did house suddenly become "white" because white musicains were involved? were they misappropriating "black music" by daring to love house? what about when gerald was with them? does that tip the scales one way or another? please enlighten me, because i'm getting confused.

this whole thing stinks of orientalism, people are coming across like old school anthropologists - its the worst kind of patronisation.

no-one wants to take anything away from anyone, but i'm not accepting something so deceptively simple and divisive. these little boxes help no-one but the music industry who can find it a whole lot easier to commodify and package it for consumers.

bassnation
13-05-2005, 11:02 AM
lest we all have short memories, this is the position that blissblogger took in his debate with kirk degiorgio regarding detroit techno

thanks for the pointer, but i'll make up my own mind.


and certainly the preponderance of influence has run from black music to white music, and not vice versa

if we accept this statement without question, there has to be a reason for it. so why do think that is? you've already denied that theres any kind of genetic aspect to this (i'm sure no-one wants to back a "black men got the funk" kind of viewpoint). so it has to be cultural. and if its cultural, why can't there be a free exchange of ideas? if its purely cultural, surely any race can become adept at the form.

i grew up listening to hardcore, it was pretty much the first music i truly fell in love with. it feels as natural to me, part of me really as it does to anyone else, no matter their race, class, gender etc. i really don't understand how you are looking at this to be perfectly honest.

Pearsall
13-05-2005, 12:25 PM
and yes, i realize that such a scheme is way too simplistic

but if you refuse to be simplistic, then at what price?

the price is that you end up expropriating blacks of their ownership of black music

so you end up replacing one kind of falsehood with an even worse falsehood

the new falsehood consisting in society's failure to recognize the qualitative difference b/w black and white contributions to modern popular music

b/c certainly black music and black artists have been the well spring, not white music

(it's the equivalent of forgetting that it was the russians who defeated nazi germany)

This is pretty silly stuff. You're putting words on my keyboard.

I'm not taking anything away from black music (in the 'black' versus 'urban' argument, I came down on the side of 'black music' for American forms like hip-hop, soul, etc, fwiw); it's not like acknowledging complexities means you are 'expropriating', that's ridiculous.

Saying hip-hop is, at core, black (as I said in the 'black versus urban' thread) doesn't mean that you are excluding other people from doing whatever with it.

Saying that these black cultural forms have been influenced by white cultural forms at various points doesn't mean you are trying to steal them.

Come on.

bassnation
13-05-2005, 12:29 PM
Saying that these black cultural forms have been influenced by white cultural forms at various points doesn't mean you are trying to steal them.
.

yeah, and why is it "influence" when it goes from white to black and "misappropriation" when its the other way round? like i said, this sounds suspiciously like orientalism to me.

Grievous Angel
13-05-2005, 12:43 PM
no, that's what i meant actually --- that the slick soulful-jazzy stuff had positive association as "classy' for a Southern working class jazz-funk... whereas as you say your more middle class types tend to valorize the raw'n'ruff'n'gritty etc etc
Yeah. I'm from Essex. A big part of what I grew up listening to was stuff like Mtume's Jiucy Fruit and obviously Maze and Earth Wind and Fire was huge, and stuff like Ashford and Simpson and (yes!) Tom Brown's Funkin' for Jamaica (one of THE GREATEST RECORDS EVER MADE) were smoooooooooth and sweet and tight in ways that would make Bassnation vomit. So I personally don't have a problem with 4Hero's worshipping at the altar of fusion. (That's not to say I didn't grow up listening to middle class grit-valorization post-punk too, course I did.) Mind you in Essex it's difficult to draw clear distinctions between working and middle class.

This is another reason why I never bought into the denigration of MJ Cole and the criticism of early Grime people who wanted to do "proper records like MJ Cole". I mean, if you like "black" music, or at least the kind of music a lot of real black people listen to, you're going to like a few smooth grooves.


a good example of these things playing out is blues... however much i know it's a cultural bias i can't help preferring the Stones version of it to say BB King's taut superslick playing
It's not BB you want, it's John Lee Hooker: you need to have Tupelo, Boom Boom Boom, and Whiskey and Women seared on your brain to put the Stones in context, though I like the way your affection for the Stones' mongrelisation presages jungle. Oh, and Muddy Waters too. (And before you ask, yes I did get pissed with Charles Shaar Murray once, but it was before he did the JLH book.)

Oh and just to join the dots, one of the reasons why jungle did not sound entirely rough was that there was so much sampling of some of the best-produced music ever made, i.e. classic soul, funk and fusion records. Tom & Jerry's Maximum Style comes to mind. Perfect productions crudely cut up into sixteenths in an S1000 -- that's jungle.

Top Stones track still played by the baggier end of house DJs: Emotional Rescue.

Top funk track with the term "funk" in the title: I don't know what it is (but it sure is funky)

Or the long version of Funky Drummer.

BTW, I class funk as religious music.


that kind of utterly self-effaced and humble 'curator/custodial' type approach to black/world/Other-sourced music, diligently researched and annotated but in the end too respectful to actually do anything ...
Compare and contrast with Parliament / Funkadelic four-CD live box sets. They're staying with me forever...

bassnation
13-05-2005, 12:52 PM
Yeah. I'm from Essex. A big part of what I grew up listening to was stuff like Mtume's Jiucy Fruit and obviously Maze and Earth Wind and Fire was huge, and stuff like Ashford and Simpson and (yes!) Tom Brown's Funkin' for Jamaica (one of THE GREATEST RECORDS EVER MADE) were smoooooooooth and sweet and tight in ways that would make Bassnation vomit. So I personally don't have a problem with 4Hero's worshipping at the altar of fusion. (That's not to say I didn't grow up listening to middle class grit-valorization post-punk too, course I did.) Mind you in Essex it's difficult to draw clear distinctions between working and middle class.

yeah, my missus grew up in southend, total soul and funk girl. we have a real mash up of music going on in my house from nutty hardcore all the way through to sly & the family stone, herbie hancock and even some galliano (prime exponents of a genre that i've roundly slagged off earlier in the thread)

but i'm not sure that working class = smooth sounds. from what i remember, heavy metal was huge amongst working class youth where i grew up. and no-one could accuse that genre of being smooth, could they? aren't we just crudely stereotyping once again?

Grievous Angel
13-05-2005, 12:56 PM
but i'm not sure that working class = smooth sounds. from what i remember, heavy metal was huge amongst working class youth where i grew up. aren't we just crudely stereotyping once again?
Just speaking from experience: most poor neighbourhoods in Essex didn't have rough music playing through windows, let alone metal, but smoooove r'n'b, or, where I was growing up, jazz funk and soul.

bassnation
13-05-2005, 12:59 PM
Just speaking from experience: most poor neighbourhoods in Essex didn't have rough music playing through windows, let alone metal, but smoooove r'n'b, or, where I was growing up, jazz funk and soul.

anyway, nice to see you crashing into this thread, wondered when you were going to arrive :D

borderpolice
13-05-2005, 01:47 PM
this thread is peculiar and paradigmatic: music is evaluated according to its (purported) audience, and to a lesser degree regarding other non-musical facts about creators, in this case skin-colour.

in my experience, just about every discussion of musical aesthetics ends up this way. popism vs rockism could also be understood along these line, in that this distinction is at heart about the role of teenage girls in music. I have often asked myself why this would be the case, why are we NOT talking about rhythms or chroma or other sonic qualities? Isn't it odd?

I take the ubiquity of this way of relating to music as an indication that music is fundamentally about social possibilities (especially sexual) though not exclusively. musical phrases, signs, encode audience. I mentioned this several times in the pop-music thread, but nobody picked up on this.

simon silverdollar
13-05-2005, 01:59 PM
it does get quite wearing how often threads on here turn back to the debate over race and class in music.

when i started this thread i was really thinking about ninja tune and the red hot cunting chili peppers, but almost inevitably a hatred of 'funkiness' gets interpreted as a dislike of black music that's 'smooth' or 'slick', or- worse- the view that black musicians can only really make ruff and raw music if they want to make good music.

over-fussy, emotionally dead, music with a certain archness (or worse- wackiness) = bad music.

and this has nothing to do with race or class. that's why i dislike ninja tune as much as a lot on 'intelligent' drum and bass, or acid jazz.

stelfox
13-05-2005, 02:10 PM
hear bloody hear - not that i agree with all of that simon, but certainly the race/class thing.

borderpolice
13-05-2005, 03:48 PM
but almost inevitably a hatred of 'funkiness' gets interpreted as a dislike of black music that's 'smooth' or 'slick', or- worse- the view that black musicians can only really make ruff and raw music if they want to make good music.

of course the funk, in the strict musical sense that's to do with syncopation and timbre, has disappeared from cutting edge black music. jamaican music never had funk in that sense. crunk is too electronic, as is much hiphop now, and grime, with novel kinds of rhythmic styles having displaced the funk. good thing too!

but i don't think it is possible to even talk about music and musical qualities without reference to (imagined) audience. the fact that you now dislike funk is itself (in parts) a reaction to whom you see appreciating this music, as opposed to who did way back. or so i'd imagine!

bassnation
13-05-2005, 04:02 PM
hear bloody hear - not that i agree with all of that simon, but certainly the race/class thing.

well it might be wearing for you, but i didn't take part in those threads - it annoyed me and i'm speaking my mind, simple as that. scroll down if it bores you.

simon silverdollar
13-05-2005, 04:18 PM
well it might be wearing for you, but i didn't take part in those threads - it annoyed me and i'm speaking my mind, simple as that. scroll down if it bores you.

ha, i actually meant the post i did above to be a kind of 'hear hear' post about yr post where you wrote:

"everything seems to be divided by class, or if not class then race - or if we're really lucky, both. but as long as it allows us to connect it all in some grand overarching theory, then thats ok. or am i being overly cynical?"

Talking about race anc class in music doesn't bore me: i was just agreeing with you that i don't like the quick move of pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on when someone says that they do, or don't, like certain music.


at least, i thought i was agreeing with you!

bassnation
13-05-2005, 04:24 PM
ha, i actually meant the post i did above to be a kind of 'hear hear' post about yr post where you wrote:

"everything seems to be divided by class, or if not class then race - or if we're really lucky, both. but as long as it allows us to connect it all in some grand overarching theory, then thats ok. or am i being overly cynical?"

Talking about race anc class in music doesn't bore me: i was just agreeing with you that i don't like the quick move of pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on when someone says that they do, or don't, like certain music.


at least, i thought i was agreeing with you!

sorry simon, its been a long week and i'm a little bit worn out and tetchy, just ignore that ill-tempered post!

:)

dominic
13-05-2005, 06:09 PM
i knew this would end up being an idiotic debate (which is why i said it wasn't worth rehashing) with people accusing others of taking positions that they did not in fact take

so it'd be helpful if people would read closely what someone else says before making such accusations

(not that my remarks ordinarily merit close reading -- but if you're going to ascribe a position to me or anyone else, then it's incumbent upon you to get that person's position right)


i grew up listening to hardcore, it was pretty much the first music i truly fell in love with. it feels as natural to me, part of me really as it does to anyone else, no matter their race, class, gender etc. i really don't understand how you are looking at this to be perfectly honest.

i didn't call hardcore black music -- i called it the ultimate creole music

moreover, i described early jungle as black music that owed debts to the creole music breakbeat hardcore and to position 2 music more generally


even country and western was influenced by music made by black musicians. even gabba is not as pure and as segregated as you appear to want it to be. hardcore was as white as it was black, and definitely more working class than anything else.

again, i called hardcore the ultimate creole music -- what more was i supposed to say???

as for country and western being influenced by black music -- or we could even say the blues influenced by scotch-irish ballads -- i said in very general terms the following:


and yes, there are all sorts of debts owed on all sides via all kinds of pathways

in other words, i acknowledged that these categories are FALSE but that the question is about the EFFECTS of different kinds of false statements about music

and my argument was that if you cease to call music "black music" b/c it's influenced by other kinds of music, then the effect is that of denying our debts to black culture and black music

and again, I thought i had made clear that we were dealing w/ 2 different kinds of false statements


so you end up replacing one kind of falsehood with an even worse falsehood

the new falsehood consisting in society's failure to recognize the qualitative difference b/w black and white contributions to modern popular music

you, however, seem to thing that the worst kind of falsehood is to perpetuate the marketing categories of the music industry


these little boxes help no-one but the music industry who can find it a whole lot easier to commodify and package it for consumers

you then ask why does the preponderance of influence run from black music to white music -- assuming that we accept this as true

and i think that it is true for simple reason that black music is more rhythmically powerful and, further, more adequate to the spiritual & psychological needs of modern people

(not that i'm prepared to defend this statement)

so you ask how it is that influence is transmitted, and you say


so it has to be cultural. and if its cultural, why can't there be a free exchange of ideas? if its purely cultural, surely any race can become adept at the form.

i think it has something to do w/ the music you hear everyday in your house as a young child growing up

the record collections that your parents have, the radio stations they listen to

the music you hear at church and family gatherings

i don't know

but again, at no point did i deny that there are perfectly competent white musicians and white producers involved in black music -- in fact i stated as much very clearly

really -- the issue was whether white critics could understand black music on its "own terms" or would necessarily have to understand w/ reference to rock music

and as for society as whole relating to rhythmic music in same way as blacks do, i think it may well take several more generations for a true creole culture to develop

and yet i also speculated that maybe the younger generation will have a more direct relationship to black music b/c of the commercial dominance of hip hop r'n'b for past 10 years

BUT IN GENERAL, i don't think that influence of this kind works as a "free exchange of ideas" -- on the deepest level it's all very unconscious, having to do with what you're surrounded by day in and day out as a young child

bassnation then remarks:


and why is it "influence" when it goes from white to black and "misappropriation" when its the other way round?

first, i think blissblogger uses the term "creative misappropriation" as a compliment -- he's taking this concept out of harold bloom and nietzsche (and in turn hegel and locke)

second, we use "influence" to describe the white influence on black music b/c is it not the case that very few blacks set out to make white music in the way that whites set out to make black music??? is it not the case the whites self-consciously take up musical forms that were developed by blacks, but that the reverse rarely happens?

SO when whites set out to make funk music or house music or hip hop, they are appropriating black music, trying to make it their own expression

or is it your claim that blacks did not invent these musical forms???

(the only parallel, really, is blacks being trained in classical music -- but that's a matter of being trained rather than appropriating as such)

also it's clear that blissblogger is using the term "creative misappropriation" in opposition to the "curatorial" mindset, wherein nothing new is developed

i.e., the curatorial mindset is decadent, whereas creative misappropriation is desirable and good


This is pretty silly stuff. You're putting words on my keyboard.

if i did, then it's certainly been turnabout fair play as bassnation has put words on my keyboard and then some!


I'm not taking anything away from black music (in the 'black' versus 'urban' argument, I came down on the side of 'black music' for American forms like hip-hop, soul, etc, fwiw) . . . . Saying hip-hop is, at core, black (as I said in the 'black versus urban' thread) doesn't mean that you are excluding other people from doing whatever with it.

then it looks like we're in agreement???


Saying that these black cultural forms have been influenced by white cultural forms at various points doesn't mean you are trying to steal them . . . . It's not like acknowledging complexities means you are 'expropriating', that's ridiculous

first, i did acknowledge the complexity

second, i spoke not of the intention behind the statement but the EFFECT of the statement -- and the effect is to expropriate

but what really kills me is that i didn't participate in the "black versus urban music" thread precisely b/c such arguments necessarily degenerate in the fashion that this one has, w/ the one side accusing the other of "orientalism," and the other calling the one "expropriatiors" -- except that i haven't accused anyone of being an expropriator -- i was speaking in terms of the effects of certain names and arguments, not the intention behind the names

dominic
13-05-2005, 06:30 PM
also -- for the record -- i didn't introduce the term black music to this discussion

i merely defended the use of the term when others challenged it

and when bassnation stated his dislike of the term, he specifically signaled out my use of it

which is why i then went to the bother of schematizing music -- which is not the same as evaluating music

ALSO, bassnation asks whether early british house sounds "white"?

answer = YES, sounds like white misappropriation of black american music -- and for the record i happen to like early 808 state (especially the "united 90" album or whatever it's called, i.e., the one with the psychedelicized american flag on the cover)

(and yes i know very well that british blacks were intimately involved with this exchange -- which is why i describe the more junglistic strains of 88/92 uk rave music as "creole" -- and yet i think it fair to call the more outright junglistic stuff "black" -- BUT REALLY the discussion was not about rave music, precisely b/c it did not keep to the standard bounds -- we were talking about black music in general, at which point certain parties contested the term -- i.e., the term black music was introduced when blissblogger began to describe the tightness of black music as opposed to the sloppiness valued by so much white indie rock -- and then i suggested that the failure to understand broken beat, i.e., why we're so mystified that people like 4hero could leave intense raving music for the seeming blandness of broken beat, may have something to do with a failure to understand black music on its "own terms")

bassnation
13-05-2005, 07:31 PM
(and yes i know very well that british blacks were intimately involved with this exchange -- which is why i describe the more junglistic strains of 88/92 uk rave music as "creole" -- and yet i think it fair to call the more outright junglistic stuff "black" -- BUT REALLY the discussion was not about rave music, precisely b/c it did not keep to the standard bounds -- we were talking about black music in general, at which point certain parties contested the term -- i.e., the term black music was introduced when blissblogger began to describe the tightness of black music as opposed to the sloppiness valued by so much white indie rock -- and then i suggested that the failure to understand broken beat, i.e., why we're so mystified that people like 4hero could leave intense raving music for the seeming blandness of broken beat, may have something to do with a failure to understand black music on its "own terms")

dominic, there really is no hope for you.

Tactics
13-05-2005, 07:34 PM
I wanna get involved in this post but don't know where to jump in...............

Grievous Angel
13-05-2005, 09:33 PM
Oh I dunno, I thought it was a good thread, and not too overburndened with class / race discussions, which themselves aren't a bad way of talking about music :) -- though I acept it can be irritating when people take the short cut of "pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on".

Anyway, back to the source:
Silverdollar:
which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?

(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)


... which is an interesting question. I understand the critique implied. I guess I can't help reacting to the term itself, or rather the experience to which it relates -- I'm not joking when I say funk is holy music to me :). And I'll use any excuse to remind myself of the glory of I Don't Know What It Is (But it Sure Is Funky) :).

And the thing is, I like a lot of what's categorised as "bad" funky music: I love a lot of the Chillis' stuff, I love a lot of Ninja Tune stuff, I can even take a bit of acid jazz here and there (odd bits of Brand New Heavies for example -- wasnt there a bumpin' UKG mix of Shelter too?). Of course, the recognised don of acid jazz appreciation is Woebot...

... guess as Luka said, I just have terrible taste!

BTW: Broken Beat can be GREAT. I saw Tom Churchill do a set at his night in Glasgow -- utterly spellbinding, murderously intense, devestatingly syncopated and devilishly funky music the way he drops it. Not bland at all, at all.

mms
13-05-2005, 09:54 PM
Oh I dunno, I thought it was a good thread, and not too overburndened with class / race discussions, which themselves aren't a bad way of talking about music :) -- though I acept it can be irritating when people take the short cut of "pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on".

Anyway, back to the source:
Silverdollar:
which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?

(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)

BTW: Broken Beat can be GREAT. I saw Tom Churchill do a set at his night in Glasgow -- utterly spellbinding, murderously intense, devestatingly syncopated and devilishly funky music the way he drops it. Not bland at all, at all.

weird cos that stuff seems to have come from the more west london groovy side of techno appreciation, four hero and all them are at it. It was called west london jazz for a while were'nt it, tom runs emoticon and headspace dunee? emoticon did the best ever jeff samuels record i think.

smooth soul and essex, that lush smooth soul stuff usually had amazing 808 programming and the lushest warm fairlight chords all over it, got to have been a big influence on shiny essex chart pop like and spandau ballet and kajagoo goo, , who incidentally released an amazing extended mix of too shy,sounds like carl craig or something. then you got all that amazing stuff jam and lewis produced, the angular minneapolis sound which is just about as good as it gets. that stuff is funky in the way that james browns beats are, ie you better stop thinking and just enjoy it or it will do you head in.

incidentally mk 2 squarepusher bought his 303 off shakatak! it had pre programmed looped blines in it.



any hip hop since the 80's with the word funky in it will be good but not anything else really i think. that's because hip hop nicked that rough 70s sound and added smooth mcing and 808s etc
funky house which is the other music essentials distribute with grime is just bad, as is that west london kinda world house stuff.

simon silverdollar
13-05-2005, 11:35 PM
perhaps i should just say that although, as i said, i have a bit of a problem with some of the arguments and comments on this thread, i wasn't trying to be all like, 'i started this thread- play by my rules!'. cuz that'd be stupid.

i wasn't trying to stop people talking about race and class [like i could!], more just trying to find out if other people felt the same as me and wanted to have a discussion about different stuff as well.


speaking of which, i may have to check out some broken beat stuff in a more serious manner than i have been- any good primer recommendations?

ladyboygrimsby
14-05-2005, 12:47 AM
perhaps i should just say that although, as i said, i have a bit of a problem with some of the arguments and comments on this thread, i wasn't trying to be all like, 'i started this thread- play by my rules!'. cuz that'd be stupid.

i wasn't trying to stop people talking about race and class [like i could!], more just trying to find out if other people felt the same as me and wanted to have a discussion about different stuff as well.


speaking of which, i may have to check out some broken beat stuff in a more serious manner than i have been- any good primer recommendations?

Shirley Horn - Return To Paradise (Mark de Clive-Lowe Remix)
Seiji - Loose Lips (in fact anything by Seiji, but especially this; they re-did it with a rap last year but the original's still the simplest and best)
Solid Groove - Flookin'
Bugz In The Attic - Booty La La (also the Bugz cover of Zombie's nice)

I was down at Goya last week and picked up a bunch of new stuff from them, the best of which is :
Trevor Loveys - Sambooka
Phuturistix - Cohiba

hint
14-05-2005, 03:15 PM
In honour of this thread, I dropped all night long by the mary jane girls in the back room at progression sessions last night :D certain forum members' idea of hell, I assume.

currently toying with the idea of doing a quick broken mix to post up here

bassnation
14-05-2005, 05:52 PM
In honour of this thread, I dropped all night long by the mary jane girls in the back room at progression sessions last night :D certain forum members' idea of hell, I assume.

currently toying with the idea of doing a quick broken mix to post up here

ha ha! good for you. would always be prepared to give music a second listen. ;)

dominic
14-05-2005, 06:03 PM
currently toying with the idea of doing a quick broken mix to post up here

you should

Grievous Angel
14-05-2005, 11:36 PM
weird cos that stuff seems to have come from the more west london groovy side of techno appreciation, four hero and all them are at it. It was called west london jazz for a while were'nt it,
Yeah. The West London sound as it was called -- an SP1200, Logic, Rhodes samples and some weird grooves...


tom runs emoticon and headspace dunee? emoticon did the best ever jeff samuels record i think.
Yeah. Tom is a Don. SUCH a nice guy. Releases great records too. A real underground hero.


smooth soul and essex, that lush smooth soul stuff usually had amazing 808 programming and the lushest warm fairlight chords all over it, got to have been a big influence on shiny essex chart pop like and spandau ballet and kajagoo goo,
Yeah. Spandau were Islington boys but totally came from Jazz Funk.


incidentally mk 2 squarepusher bought his 303 off shakatak! it had pre programmed looped blines in it.
Wild! Great story, where'd you get that from?


funky house which is the other music essentials distribute with grime is just bad, as is that west london kinda world house stuff.
Ah. I really like a lot of funky house :). And if by west London world house you mean afrobeat influenced stuff, well.... :)

Grievous Angel
14-05-2005, 11:38 PM
perhaps i should just say that although, as i said, i have a bit of a problem with some of the arguments and comments on this thread, i wasn't trying to be all like, 'i started this thread- play by my rules!'. cuz that'd be stupid.
Simon...

Here, you can do no wrong.

Here, everyone loves you.

all night long by the mary jane girls
Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnne!!!!!

Would love a broken beat mix.

Tom C did a great one a few years back if you can find it....

mms
15-05-2005, 02:31 PM
Yeah. The West London sound as it was called -- an SP1200, Logic, Rhodes samples and some weird grooves...



Yeah. Spandau were Islington boys but totally came from Jazz Funk.
yep you're right point lost then



Wild! Great story, where'd you get that from?

i used to know tom fairly well, he used to live up the road from me in stoke newington,and i used to share a huge dirty cheap house with one of his best mates among others, course there is the rephlex connection.
all those early eps are named after places in north london, alroy road tracks, the duke of haringay, (pub on greenlanes) etc. he's a strange guy, we don't chat much no more.



Ah. I really like a lot of funky house :). And if by west London world house you mean afrobeat influenced stuff, well.... :)


but its so boring, how can you like congo natty and funky house! :D what does it do, maybe one tune in 500 but i dunno. it's the music of choice of the snobby lot in reckless records.

bassnation
16-05-2005, 10:46 AM
but its so boring, how can you like congo natty and funky house! :D what does it do, maybe one tune in 500 but i dunno. it's the music of choice of the snobby lot in reckless records.

paul is amazingly open-minded when it comes to music - not often i hear him dissing anything, he can always find a positive angle the old hippie as he is!

mr tom
25-05-2005, 03:04 PM
Broken beat was interesting for a while - these records are all amazing...

Mustang - Transitions (Visions Inc)
Seiji - Into The Now/Silver Blossom (2000 Black)
Domu - Snake Eyes/Dresssed To Ill (2000 Black)
Nubian Mindz - Black Science (Archive)
Son Of Scientist - Theory Of Everything (Main Squeeze)

All of these have an incredible otherworldly, futuristic, sci-fi atmosphere that has more in common with Sun Ra and Jeff Mills than wine- bar jazz-funk.

But at least 75% of contemporary broken beat is shit - fact. Next!

mr tom
25-05-2005, 03:12 PM
Um, hello btw - been occasionally lurking for a while but decided to stick my head up...

baboon2004
29-08-2011, 10:58 PM
ha! just came across this thread looking for Carl Craig recs.... Oh, to be able to see into the future!


so i was in rough trade yesterday, flicking through their sale section, and came across a cd by someone i'd forgotten even existed: funki porcini...

which got me thinking about the almost visceral reaction i have to things that claim to be 'funky'. it's so instantly repellent to me: it puts things completely beyond the pale.

so many bad things seem to be bound up in the notion of 'funkiness', in that it tends to be the self-description of wacky muso types unwittingly (or not) removing themselves from the things that made the music that supposedly influenced them interesting and fun, OR the kind of description that dickhead tv presenters give music that's Just Weird Enough.

dance music made by and for people who don't dance. dance music made by and for people who aren't on the right drugs. and wackiness, always wackiness.


which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?

(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)

zhao
30-08-2011, 06:42 AM
:D

gumdrops
30-08-2011, 10:44 AM
funky is best used now in the sense of something just being syncopated (like uk funky!) rather than funk signifiers which usually come out badly (though with all the 80s influences, that decades funk seems to be getting mined quite a bit right now)

Damien
30-08-2011, 11:27 AM
been on a bit of a 90s rnb neo-funk kick recently actually

simon silverdollar
30-08-2011, 12:18 PM
ha! just came across this thread looking for Carl Craig recs.... Oh, to be able to see into the future!

Ha, I still stand by everything I said in this thread ;)
surprised by how militant I used to be, back in the day...

zhao
30-08-2011, 02:36 PM
funky is best used now in the sense of something just being syncopated (like uk funky!)

not exactly because there is a lot of syncopated dance music which is rigid and lifeless and not funky at all.

routes
30-08-2011, 03:00 PM
"out of time, together"

routes
27-09-2011, 10:06 PM
is there a Prince thread? i love the line in Poplife when he goes "But life it aint real funky unless it's got that pop! Dig it!"

wise
28-09-2011, 04:38 PM
Most of Mr Porcini's output is properly horrid, but i've always had a soft spot for this one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS9QO1JCQY0

Dub reggae lite though it may be :D