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swears
08-11-2006, 08:24 PM
Why does everybody always insist on people "sharing" their feelings with others?
There seems to be a lot more dignity in keeping certain things to yourself. Everytime I've ever really told someone how I deeply felt or something important from my past or whatever, I didn't feel better, I just felt embarrased or even ashamed.
Wouldn't you say there's something very noble about not burdening others with your problems? This isn't a macho thing by the way, some of the most interesting women I've ever known have held this view one way or another.

DJ PIMP
08-11-2006, 09:08 PM
you can share stuff with people without being all boo-hoo poor-me about it.

as anthony rother said, friends are not electric. if you really want to get to know someone it does come down to feelings and what they are going through... but thats an organic process rather than a forced 'tell me how you feel' scenario.

dignity? *raspberry*

swears
08-11-2006, 09:10 PM
You have a problem>you tell somebody about it> they can't really do anything about it>You have a problem...

DJ PIMP
08-11-2006, 09:24 PM
maybe they do have something to offer? or can relate something similar from their life? all of a sudden you're having a real conversation and the world is slightly less frosty.

or it could simply be helpful to verbalise and externalise... i think thats an important part of becoming conscious of something. its one thing to have your thoughts, its another to get them out.

i don't sweat the small stuff tho... no sense having unnecessary drama. some of my favourite convo's are where there is an mutual unspoken understanding of what is going on... alluding to something by talking around it.

DJ PIMP
08-11-2006, 09:28 PM
and i tell you what... bottling things up can become denial, which can become repression, which doesn't take the things away at all but leaves them sitting in your head, where they will eventually become unconsciously manifest in one way or another, to potentially disastrous effect, depending on what you're working with.

so i'm a big fan of communication.

nomadologist
09-11-2006, 09:03 PM
Ever heard the term "passive aggression"?

swears
09-11-2006, 09:12 PM
Ever heard the term "passive aggression"?

You think I'm passive-aggressive, or you think keeping things to yourself leads to, or is in itself a form of it?

nomadologist
09-11-2006, 09:29 PM
I think bottling up negative feelings rather than confronting their root cause is 1) at times unavoidable, 2) bound to erupt to the surface (yes, in the form of passive-aggression, or sometimes to far more immediate consequences, plain old aggression), and 3) not necessarily what you're doing.

The irony here is that you're asking us. I think you're troubled, and you're lashing out, but not passive-aggressively. Yet.

Re: women troubles. As a female, I will tell you that most women (for whatever reason, in my experience) respond to passive-aggressive behavior in males negatively. As in, they find it unattractive. I know it's unfair, as women are socialized into being awful passive-aggressive catty bitches all too often, but, look at it this way: as a male, feel lucky you are ALLOWED to exercise/exorcise (your right to) direct conflict when necessary. I often notice that I'm luckier than my boyfriend in that I have license to unchecked moodiness and emotional breakdowns, which he doesn't have. Works both ways.

And don't worry. You're bright and I'm sure there's someone out there who will recognize that and, hey, whose needs you might be able to fulfill, too.

Hope this isn't too Dr. Phil for everyone. I'm bored at work, and I see Swears seems down elsewhere.

mms
09-11-2006, 11:16 PM
pull back, reflect lightly, do things that make you happy, be more organised, don't worry about how other people might react if you know its their own insecurities. that's what i think.
personally i'm trying to give up angsty thoughts, or worrying what other people think etc cos it really doesnt matter most of the time.
alot of the people i work with are in 10 years or 5 years younger than me and for the first time i feel older and wiser occasionaly.

DJ PIMP
09-11-2006, 11:54 PM
the way i see it everything is a pattern changing as it moves through time.

so everyone is the way they are for a reason... if i go off the wall its because i'm stressed (itself a pattern i fall into), or because theres a niggle somewhere. if i go looking for the root of the niggle i find it somewhere in the past, sometimes in events that i'd just brushed off at the time, either because i didn't think they were a big deal or because i was too much of a pussy (no offense vaginas - i love you) to deal with it on the spot... or sometimes there is a Traumatic Event often relating to my Family [cue involuntary stabbing motion].

as a person this means the more conscious you become of your patterns the better able you are to choose how you are and the more free you become and the more you find tranquility in simple pleasures such as knitting homespun organic scarves.

oddly enough i've found the hive-mind of the internet really helpful because i get to recognise my own patterns of behaviour by observing others doing similar or different things... and decide I don't want to be like that. unless people are worshipping villalobos in which case i simply can't help myself.

elgato
10-11-2006, 12:30 AM
in general, i believe strongly in expressing ones feelings. i think that repressing emotion can lead to disastrous internal consequences, as well as relationship breakdowns.


Re: women troubles. As a female, I will tell you that most women (for whatever reason, in my experience) respond to passive-aggressive behavior in males negatively. As in, they find it unattractive. I know it's unfair, as women are socialized into being awful passive-aggressive catty bitches all too often, but, look at it this way: as a male, feel lucky you are ALLOWED to exercise/exorcise (your right to) direct conflict when necessary. I often notice that I'm luckier than my boyfriend in that I have license to unchecked moodiness and emotional breakdowns, which he doesn't have. Works both ways.

a problem that ive found is that a definite majority of the women that i've had experience of in a relationship (either with myself or through close friends) deal extremely badly with communicating. it may well be that ive just been unfortunate, but ive seen a consistent lack of willingness to express themselves regarding problems or important issues, even when they're clearly staring them in the face, and clearly causing massive problems for the practical wellbeing of their relationships / their general happiness. instead they have dealt with it through passive aggressive behaviour, by simple repression, or denial if confronted. is this something i just need to get used to?! ive met a fair number of girls, but so few have demonstrated the emotional maturity that i feel is necessary to make a relationship truly sustainable

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 02:27 AM
It's not that either sex (ugh science) communicates better or worse, it's that our brains have evolved differently and process language differently using different parts of the brain. The old idea was that women were less "rational" or "logical" and more emotional, because they use both hemispheres processing language and use more complex mechanisms to integrate input/output from emotional centers with language centers in the brain (an oversimplification of a very complex process, but you get the point?) It can be frustrating to bump up against that, but it's important to remember. Especially important to remember is that despite this, there are more similarities in performance of analytical/spatial any kind of ability across biological sexes than there are differences. Same with "races."

Although, I do think sometimes particular circumstances account for (as much if not) much more than biology, and it could be that wherever you live or whatever your particular social milieu is, Elgato, women do for whatever reason mature more slowly. Couldn't say. But don't rule out bad luck.

tate
10-11-2006, 02:54 AM
Elgato, women do for whatever reason mature more slowly..
oh for fuck's sake that is one of the more ridiculous things I've ever heard - "women for whatever reason mature more slowly" -- are you out of your mind? That's a totally baseless statement and frankly I am surprised to read it from anyone, much less nomadologist. as if elgato's "well i've met a fair number of girls who haven't been mature enough for me" were some sort of evidence regarding the female gender . . . WHO CARES how many girls elgato has met or what they were like, that sure as hell doesn't count for anything remotely resembling evidence about the female gender, it's just personal testimony. I really do not understand the willingness of some people to overgeneralize about topics that thoughtful, committed people have been working years and years to improve and overcome.

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 03:35 AM
huh?? did you read those few words in context? where i said i can't account for his experience, and that maybe he met some immature females?? or the first paragraph, where i totally disagreed with him about that??

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 03:37 AM
I work for biomedical research. I work for Nobel prize winning scientists, some working in neuroscience, some biology. Sorry, but did you read anything I said there, or just scan for something to object to?

EDIT: Note that I was careful not to use the word "gender" with regard to biological neurological sexual differences. Two completely different things.

SECOND EDIT: With regard to gender and personal experience, there is no way to be rigorous scientifically in this setting. I'm afraid it's all anecdotal on this level, especially on a message board where people are openly trying to understand what may be their egregious misapprehensions.

THIRD: I'm female myself, so I really would have no vested interest in going all Patty Hearst on the patriarchy, would I?

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 03:55 AM
Also, are you saying every culture is homogenous and none have different standards/expectations/rules/etc. for behavior based on "gender"?

tate
10-11-2006, 03:58 AM
I work for biomedical research. I work for Nobel prize winning scientists, some working in neuroscience, some biology. Sorry, but did you read anything I said there, or just scan for something to object to?
Yes, I read everything that you wrote. I am genuinely sorry if my exasperation offended you, and I am happy to know that you work with accomplished people in the biomedical field. Nevertheless, you began your post with some sort of pseudo-account of the biological differences regarding "language acquisition" "in either sex" and referred to brain evolution; and then concluded by stating that "women mature more slowly than men." Are you surprised that someone would find that objectionable?

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 04:01 AM
No I didn't. I said maybe in whatever culture Elgato lives, women are held up to different behavioral standards. Then I said "don't count on" your experience being some kind of principle to be universally applied. I didn't refer to "evolution" in any inappropriate way (edit), and I explained that I was paraphrasing much more complicated processes. If that's not enough of a disclaimer, I'm not sure what would be.

A vast body of clinical research supporting anything I said up there is at my disposal. If you're interested in any of it.

UFO over easy
10-11-2006, 04:18 AM
do things that make you happy

That can be pretty difficult if you're unhappy.. then that itself becomes another reason to be unhappy and the whole cycle continues. Hooray!

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 04:18 AM
And last, this is a thread about "feelings", perceptions. People are just being honest about theirs here. I could spend all day being scientific about this, but I do not have the time, and this is not the place.

I am not going to be gender-baited on a message board when all know how counter-productive that would be. Have fun guys!

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 04:28 AM
On a different note, UFO--we actually can see the light at the end of the tunnel. If you're into neuroscience, google "p11 protein" and "Paul Greengard." Maybe you saw the article about him in the Times recently. Finally made a really promising discovery on the "basic science" level that could revolutionize how we treat depression, and how we avoid it. Without SSRIs MAOIs and such. The whole scientific discourse on depressive disorders is about to explode.

elgato
10-11-2006, 11:30 AM
as if elgato's "well i've met a fair number of girls who haven't been mature enough for me" were some sort of evidence regarding the female gender . . . WHO CARES how many girls elgato has met or what they were like, that sure as hell doesn't count for anything remotely resembling evidence about the female gender, it's just personal testimony. I really do not understand the willingness of some people to overgeneralize about topics that thoughtful, committed people have been working years and years to improve and overcome.

i seem to have caused some serious offence here, i apologise for doing so. i took the opportunity while we were on the topic to discuss an issue which has been plaguing me for the last few months of my life following a very painful breakup, with a female who seemed to be in a position to discuss the issue openly...to get a perspective which i hoped was there but which my experience had left me struggling to believe. you seem to resent the fact that i expressed my feelings in this way, i'd appreciate knowing why if you're going to backhandedly insult me like that...

and clearly nomadologist said it could be that the women may mature more slowly in my specific social strata...

elgato
10-11-2006, 11:47 AM
It's not that either sex (ugh science) communicates better or worse, it's that our brains have evolved differently and process language differently using different parts of the brain. The old idea was that women were less "rational" or "logical" and more emotional, because they use both hemispheres processing language and use more complex mechanisms to integrate input/output from emotional centers with language centers in the brain (an oversimplification of a very complex process, but you get the point?) It can be frustrating to bump up against that, but it's important to remember. Especially important to remember is that despite this, there are more similarities in performance of analytical/spatial any kind of ability across biological sexes than there are differences. Same with "races."

Although, I do think sometimes particular circumstances account for (as much if not) much more than biology, and it could be that wherever you live or whatever your particular social milieu is, Elgato, women do for whatever reason mature more slowly. Couldn't say. But don't rule out bad luck.

thanks for that

i know deep down that this is the case, its just a combination of bad luck and perhaps social grouping, but its sometimes very difficult to see it, easy to be fatalistic, and easy to start questioning whether it is just myself having too high expectations. but again, thanks for the reassurance :)

UFO over easy
10-11-2006, 04:15 PM
group hug?

nomadologist
10-11-2006, 04:38 PM
I'm glad Elgato read my tone, though I'm sure I could have said all of that MUCH better .It can be hard to read anything into the tone of posts, and easy to let the rhetoric get too heated. Especially given how different British and American English are idiomatically :slanted:

I wish there were a hug icon. :mad:

gek-opel
10-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Cold anger. The punishing refrain of non communicative male rage. Capiche? If no one is capable of helping, what precisely is the purpose of emoting? Beyond some kind of atheistic confessional?

elgato
10-11-2006, 11:52 PM
Cold anger. The punishing refrain of non communicative male rage. Capiche? If no one is capable of helping, what precisely is the purpose of emoting? Beyond some kind of atheistic confessional?

firstly i think that an atheistic confessional can be a positive thing, as it forces you to clearly articulate and confront the problem at hand, which allows you to better process and deal with it

but also it depends on the nature of the issue... if it is one relating to the second party in question, then communication may well be a necessary path if the relationship (of whatever type, not restricted to those romantic in nature) is to flourish, as opposed to crumbling under the pressure of repressed emotion and passive aggression. if the other party are incapable of dealing with the communication then it serves to demonstrate said incapability, and therefore demonstrating the probable limits of your relationship with them

i must admit i dont fully understand what the first half of your post meant, could you clarify please? im very intrigued

Peak
14-12-2006, 04:04 PM
I don't understand this idea of choosing whether or not to tell other people what you're feeling. I only find out what I'm feeling in conversation with someone.

Or; if my range of feelings at any given moment is A-Z, thinking about them gets me to B if I'm lucky, writing to D. Talking might get me to K. This may not help me particularly, it just makes life more interesting.