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martin
21-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Anyone here going? I'm thinking of heading down there. Might run into the odd cunt from Respect or the SWP, but some of the acts actually seem alright

crackerjack
21-04-2008, 12:37 PM
I'd comppletely blocked it out till i realised Good, Bad & Queen have been drafted into replace the dreaded babybollocks. Got a mate's 40th earlier that day, but Viccy Pk is right next door so it would seem daft not to go for the headliners at least.

Mr. Tea
21-04-2008, 01:37 PM
I hope they've booked Morrissey as a surprise guest act.

crackerjack
21-04-2008, 01:51 PM
I hope they've booked Morrissey as a surprise guest act.

oh he hates racism, him. almost as much as he hates immigration.

slackk
21-04-2008, 03:24 PM
Interested only because Roll Deep, Wiley, Tinchy & Jammer are there.

Jonesy
21-04-2008, 03:55 PM
Anyone here going? I'm thinking of heading down there. Might run into the odd cunt from Respect or the SWP, but some of the acts actually seem alright

Or the odd feminist. So remember to wash your potty-mouth out before you go down there.

martin
21-04-2008, 04:39 PM
Real feminists don't object to 'cunt', it's only liberal wets who cry over that one

Mr. Tea
21-04-2008, 04:50 PM
Real feminists don't object to 'cunt'

Indeed some of them are quite partial... :D

*scarpers*

ripley
21-04-2008, 06:43 PM
Real feminists don't object to 'cunt', it's only liberal wets who cry over that one

sorry, I missed the memo on who is or isn't a real feminist - mind posting the approved list? and is that you that made it? cos I missed it. Maybe that's why I wasn't notified of the new rule that feminists don't challenge sexist use of language any more. It must be because we've won! Hoorah! drinks all round! I'll just pop off to pick up my reparations check for lost wages (while walking naked down the street with no fear of harassment or worse) forthwith.

no seriously. re "cunt" - using it as an insult? boringly sexist. reclaiming it as a positive term? at least well-meaning..

let's not get into the apparently mind-bogglingly complicated distinction between rehashing the same old sexist terminology in a way that reinforces sexism (by relying on sexism to support the negative meaning), and using a word in a way that REVERSES the negative connotation. :slanted:

Corpsey
21-04-2008, 07:27 PM
The lineup makes my quim wet

slim jenkins
22-04-2008, 08:52 AM
Indeed some of them are quite partial... :D

*scarpers*


:):):)

I'm going - to prove how saintly and pure my thoughts are regarding all races..like, you know, the United Colours of Benetton...like ebony and ivory...like imagine all the people...raises hands, holds up lighter...etc..

martin
22-04-2008, 08:56 AM
No, what it comes down to is YOU personally find it offensive and don't want to hear it, so you'll brand anyone who uses it* as 'sexist', regardless of the word's origin, subsequent mutation and the intent in the usage.

(*unless they're a musician, artist or someone you respect, in which case it's highly provocative, challenging, etc)

IdleRich
22-04-2008, 11:53 AM
"no seriously. re "cunt" - using it as an insult? boringly sexist."
Gotta say I've never been able to understand why using "cunt" as an insult is any worse (or any different in any way) from calling someone a "prick", "cock" or "dick" - or "twat" for that matter.
My girlfriend always says she thinks it's actually sexist when people say that "cunt" is somehow worse but that's a different can of worms I guess.

Mr. Tea
22-04-2008, 12:46 PM
:):):)

I'm going - to prove how saintly and pure my thoughts are regarding all races..like, you know, the United Colours of Benetton...like ebony and ivory...like imagine all the people...raises hands, holds up lighter...etc..

Aargh, fucking Benetton ads piss me off no end. All those utterly contrived-looking interracial couples all but screaming at you, "If you don't buy our stuff, you're ALMOST CERTAINLY an appalling racist!". Gah.

swears
22-04-2008, 01:57 PM
Think those Benneton ads were part of high-fashion getting a bit big for its boots in the 90s, and making really deep political statements like "HEY GUYS, PREJUDICE IS BAD". Kinda like when people thought rock music could make a difference, haha.

Mr. Tea
22-04-2008, 02:00 PM
Think those Benneton ads were part of high-fashion getting a bit big for its boots in the 90s, and making really deep political statements like "HEY GUYS, PREJUDICE IS BAD".

Actually, it's a good thing they did point it out. I might not have noticed otherwise.

swears
22-04-2008, 02:01 PM
re: The "cunt" debate.

Can I still can someone a "tit"? 'Cuz that shit's classic.

Mr. Tea
22-04-2008, 02:26 PM
re: The "cunt" debate.

Can I still can someone a "tit"? 'Cuz that shit's classic.

Only a complete twat would object to 'tit'.

swears
22-04-2008, 02:28 PM
"You stupid tit" has a nice ring to it.

Mr. Tea
22-04-2008, 02:39 PM
There's a great Simpsons episode from yonks back where Homer is being interviewed by a reporter for a news channel, and it's broadcast with the words HOMER SIMPSON, LOCAL BOOB at the bottom of the picture.

ripley
22-04-2008, 06:17 PM
No, what it comes down to is YOU personally find it offensive and don't want to hear it, so you'll brand anyone who uses it* as 'sexist', regardless of the word's origin, subsequent mutation and the intent in the usage.

(*unless they're a musician, artist or someone you respect, in which case it's highly provocative, challenging, etc)

no, what it comes down to is that anything that makes you have to question your own behavior is just Too Hard so instead you pretend that language has no meaning or context outside of what you want to give it

You guys can revel in saying naughty words (oo you said that one, tee hee) that all rely on using women's body parts as insults all you want. But don't kid yourself that it doesn't rely on sexism, and reinforce it.

and your asterisk is just silly. First of all, it's not about me at all actually, because you have no idea what makes me respect someone. But the point I already made appears to have gone right over your head - it's not WHO is saying it as how it is used. It's not that difficult. If you can't tell the difference between using "cunt" to mean "something bad" and using "cunt" to mean "something good" then you're just not thinking. And the idea that I am the only person to find using it as in insult is offensive is ridiculous.

we've heard the "meaning has changed" argument a million times for different words. But the first point it's not up to the people who are not denigrated by the term to decide when it's not offensive. I'm not claiming to speak for all women, but its pretty rich when someone who is apparently member of the group NOT being insulted gets to tell me what's insulting to me. (Correct me if I'm wrong martin and you are female). But beyond that, there are certainly women who are sexist, once again, ultimately it's about how the term is used, not who is using it.

This gets to IdleRich's question about why using "dick" as an insult is not as problematic. Which is another thing some people here seem to have an amazingly hard time with. the idea that we aren't floating in some contextless vacuum when we interact with each other.

It's because the system of oppression and devaluation based on gender does not go equally in both directions. it is women who are systematically devalued. So using a term that relies on a negative assumption with women plays into that system. Using a term that relies on a stereotype of men does not weaken the position of men in society to the same extent.

think of any other (socially constructed) binary system of oppression you like - with your language can either reinforce it or you can sidestep it or maybe you can challenge it.

and to some extent I wonder if you know all this. Because if it was no big deal you'd just say "yeah, it is a bit sexist. But i don't care/it's not that important/it's how I was raised" or something. but instead we get people fighting for the right to use cunt as an insult but have it not be degrading to women. spare me!

swears
22-04-2008, 08:00 PM
You know, I don't find the term "cunt" offensive when directed towards a man, but calling a woman that is really shocking. It's like something a proper angry nutter would say. I suppose "arsehole" is a better, gender-neutral term.

Mr. Tea
22-04-2008, 09:26 PM
What about when women use the word (as an insult, I mean)? Is it 'allowed' under that circumstance, like black people saying "nigger", or something?

Martin Dust
22-04-2008, 09:33 PM
I like it as a word, it gets used a lot in Sheffield.

viktorvaughn
22-04-2008, 09:41 PM
Interested only because Roll Deep, Wiley, Tinchy & Jammer are there. And HLC...

nomos
22-04-2008, 09:56 PM
I think the way the word resonates in the UK v. North America is very different. Over here you rarely hear and it can silence a room. It's well beyond 'fuck' on the swearing scale. I've heard of visiting Brits discovering this quite awkwardly. But over there it seems like its effect has been numbed by dissociation and repetition. At least that's my impression given how readily it's tossed around.

Corpsey
22-04-2008, 10:45 PM
''Beloved Cunt?!''

swears
22-04-2008, 10:58 PM
Maybe it's different in the states, hardly anyone in the UK ever uses "cunt" or "twat" to actually refer to a vagina, 99% of the time it's used as an generic insult towards a man.

martin
23-04-2008, 11:28 AM
You guys can revel in saying naughty words (oo you said that one, tee hee)


but instead we get people fighting for the right to use cunt as an insult but have it not be degrading to women. spare me!

I'm assuming you're at college, quite thick or living in a cotton wool world (or all three) but you really need to get over this lazy fall-back of accusing people who disagree with you of gleefully revelling in some overblown caricature of what you find offensive. Yeah, I'm sniggering and nudging Eric Idle every time I use bad language, even bloody makes me titter...

Still, "fighting for the right to use cunt" made me laugh, would make a great Manowar comeback LP title.

IdleRich
23-04-2008, 11:30 AM
"I think the way the word resonates in the UK v. North America is very different."
I was going to ask if this was the case actually. Although I have (very occasionally - in fact once) heard people in England say that the word is unnaceptable it seems to be much more the case in America. Not sure why this should be the case though.


"This gets to IdleRich's question about why using "dick" as an insult is not as problematic. Which is another thing some people here seem to have an amazingly hard time with. the idea that we aren't floating in some contextless vacuum when we interact with each other.
It's because the system of oppression and devaluation based on gender does not go equally in both directions. it is women who are systematically devalued. So using a term that relies on a negative assumption with women plays into that system. Using a term that relies on a stereotype of men does not weaken the position of men in society to the same extent."
The disagreement is not due to a lack of context on my part, it's more that the context that you are assuming for the word's use is incorrect here. I don't think it is a negative link with woman, I think that calling someone a "dick", "twat" or "arse" is a deliberate linking with the so-called "unclean" parts of the body. It's not the femininity of the part that that makes it an insult it's the fact that it's the part used in sex and or excretion and I think that this is clear from the symmetry of the usage. I'd pretty much agree with what my girlfriend says, if you consider comparing someone with the rude bits on a woman worse than comparing them with the rude bits on the man doesn't that make you a bit sexist? The sexism inherent in the word is only there if you already make the (sexist) assumption that woman is linked with negativity.

benjybars
23-04-2008, 11:46 AM
''Beloved Cunt?!''

haha... there's quite a lot of 'cunt'-related storyline in CYE... definitely seems to be more taboo in the states.

go to any football match in the uk (actually, maybe just West Ham) and it will be the most regularly used word of the afternoon.

petergunn
23-04-2008, 11:49 AM
what time are Tom Robinson Band playing?

Immryr
23-04-2008, 06:00 PM
idlerich is 100% OTM.

aMinadaB
23-04-2008, 07:37 PM
idlerich is 100% OTM.
No he's not. Not even close. :D

Let's take a look:


The disagreement is not due to a lack of context on my part, it's more that the context that you are assuming for the word's use is incorrect here. I don't think it is a negative link with woman, I think that calling someone a "dick", "twat" or "arse" is a deliberate linking with the so-called "unclean" parts of the body. It's not the femininity of the part that that makes it an insult it's the fact that it's the part used in sex and or excretion and I think that this is clear from the symmetry of the usage. I'd pretty much agree with what my girlfriend says, if you consider comparing someone with the rude bits on a woman worse than comparing them with the rude bits on the man doesn't that make you a bit sexist? The sexism inherent in the word is only there if you already make the (sexist) assumption that woman is linked with negativity.
Contra IdleRich 'unclean' is hardly the sole or even primary purpose for referring to genitalia in insults... there are many motivations and reasons, this has been studied rather extensively ....

First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps .... The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it.

What has always been interesting to me about discussions such as the one above -- and especially the defensive comments made -- is encountering the person who beats their chest in some sort of moralizing 'gotcha' moment to say, 'no no no, if you can say dick, i can say cunt, what's the difference?'

First of all, what is the motivation behind that wish to equivocate? "I can say cunt, I really can!!! Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!" etc etc, same old boring story ... people used to say EXACTLY the same thing about the word n#gger, negro, 'colored' people, etc ... which was patently absurd then, as now ... "No, no, we're not racists, it's just how people talk, don't judge us, we're good folks, it's just the way it works around here "... I heard that plenty in the late 70s.

As someone living in the US, I can say that I agree with all of what Ripley wrote above. It's not even controversial, what she says, it's certainly not 'politically correct,' it's just basic behavior among people who pay attention to what they say, and who spend time around politically active people. If you care about making a difference, you practice what you preach in your daily life, rather than seeking to justify lazy linguistic usage.

Mr. Tea
23-04-2008, 09:09 PM
First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps .... The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it.

This may all be true in and of itself, but it totally ignores the fact that male genitals are given negative associations, too: have you never heard someone say "Oh, he's a total cock", or "What a dickhead" or "Don't talk bollocks!"? Or said any of those things yourself? If a 'pussy' is a coward then a 'dick' is an idiot*; I wouldn't particularly want to be thought of as either.

I will give you that 'cunt' is generally regarded as The Worst Word - worse than 'cock', most of the time, at any rate - but I wonder how much of this is due to feminists' fetishisation of the word as somehow worse than any other? (It didn't used to be obscene (just like all our good old Anglo-Saxon words such as 'shit', 'arse', 'fuck' and so on); in fact it's cognate with the ancient Greek gyne, 'woman'.) All this is by the bye, though: my point is that your argument would hold water if linguistic associations with male sex organs were either positive or at best neutral, but this clearly isn't the case.

*or, indeed, a 'wanker' or 'tosser': another male-specific sex insult..

Jonesy
23-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Saying that the use of male genitalia as an insult is equal to using 'cunt' for the same purpose is not very intelligent.

'Cunt' and 'cock' are not used in a social vacuum but in a (UK) society where 167 women are raped everyday and two women are killed at the hands of their partner/former partner every week.

Of course users of the word aren't wifebeaters and rapists but there IS a culture of misogyny that is reinforced by language. So don't be surprised if you get called up on using certain language.

Mr. Tea
23-04-2008, 10:40 PM
Saying that the use of male genitalia as an insult is equal to using 'cunt' for the same purpose is not very intelligent.


I didn't say it was "equal", I said it was insulting, in a different (and, admittedly, usually less insulting) way.

Martin Dust
24-04-2008, 08:19 AM
what time are Tom Robinson Band playing?

Exactly

IdleRich
24-04-2008, 10:18 AM
"First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps ...."
Come off it, I said "unclean" meaning not literally unclean (hence the scare quotes) but the parts that are decreed as "shameful" and which society decrees must be covered up (ignoring the question of whether you really think your mouth is dirtier than your bum).


"The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it."
Well (leaving aside the fact that you've changed from "cunt" to "pussy" to find a link that suits what you're saying), I'm sure you're right that sports coaches and the like deliberately denigrate people by associating them with those they consider to be physically weaker and an obvious example of such a person is likely to be a woman. To me there is probably a problem with such a culture rather than the word they use to manifest that problem. It's kind of a bit cargo cult to think that if you don't hear the word that offends you then everything is ok.


"First of all, what is the motivation behind that wish to equivocate? "I can say cunt, I really can!!! Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!" etc etc, same old boring story ... people used to say EXACTLY the same thing about the word n#gger, negro, 'colored' people, etc ... which was patently absurd then, as now ... "No, no, we're not racists, it's just how people talk, don't judge us, we're good folks, it's just the way it works around here "... I heard that plenty in the late 70s."
I dunno, I think that the relevant question here is "what's the motivation to suddenly try and stop people using a perfectly good word?".


Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!"
Just occured to me that you might be referring to me talking about my girlfriend here. Maybe not, but just in case you are, it should be clear that I didn't say "they do it, so can I", I gave a fairly straightforward explanation of exactly why she (as an intelligent thinking person - but, yes you're right, a woman) has no problem with the word and why she tends to think that there is something a bit icky about those who do.


"As someone living in the US, I can say that I agree with all of what Ripley wrote above. It's not even controversial, what she says, it's certainly not 'politically correct,' it's just basic behavior among people who pay attention to what they say, and who spend time around politically active people. If you care about making a difference, you practice what you preach in your daily life, rather than seeking to justify lazy linguistic usage."
I think you've got it the wrong way round here again. To me it's lazy to hear someone say the word is unnaceptable and just nod sagely rather than thinking "hang on a minute, that doesn't make sense". When people are asked why they think it's unnaceptable they tend to make very vague appeals to a general context that somehow is supposed to explain what they're saying but I don't see any actual explanation.
Maybe the US/UK thing is an important distinction because in my experience it is not a word that has the meaning that it obviously does for you - I can only reiterate that in my experience it is not a negative relation to a woman but to rude bits.


"'Cunt' and 'cock' are not used in a social vacuum but in a (UK) society where 167 women are raped everyday and two women are killed at the hands of their partner/former partner every week."
The words in that sentence make sense but because of the way you've written it it's almost as if you think that the bit after the "but" has some relevance to the bit before.
This is exactly the kind of lazy nonsense I'm talking about "women get raped therefore you can't say cunt - simple". You missed out the argument.

martin
24-04-2008, 11:47 AM
Two - Four-six- Eight
Cunt-a-way...

Martin Dust
24-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Saying that the use of male genitalia as an insult is equal to using 'cunt' for the same purpose is not very intelligent.


Please post up this rule book you're working from cos I'm interested in reading it.

aMinadaB
24-04-2008, 01:54 PM
The words in that sentence make sense but because of the way you've written it it's almost as if you think that the bit after the "but" has some relevance to the bit before.
This is exactly the kind of lazy nonsense I'm talking about "women get raped therefore you can't say cunt - simple". You missed out the argument.
No one said "you can't use X word," or that some words are inherently, by virtue of their assemblage of syllables, objectionable (I mean!), they simply said, if you use certain words, you may be reinforcing certain structures in society that are unequal or objectionable. Jonesy did not say, "women are raped, therefore you can't use the word 'cunt' " (his post deserved a better reading that your misrepresentation, to be honest), he simply pointed to the blindingly obvious fact that words have social and historical meanings, effects, and weight quite apart from their dictionary entry ... not "you can't say the word 'cunt', but: 'if you do use the word 'cunt', especially in certain public venues, you can expect for some people to find it objectionable." This makes perfect sense to me, but you so clearly objected to it, that I would like to try to understand where you are coming from. I don't say this sarcastically, I am genuinely curious.

I take it from your response that you find Jonesy's post to be in error (since you called it 'lazy' and said that he's "missed the argument")? I am trying to extrapolate your own view from this, so here's an attempt: You, IdleRich, don't think that people should choose words according to those words' current social implications or associations or possible effects on others, the important point is that 'so long as my personal intention is not sexist, the word has no sexist effect' ? Is that the direction you are going in? I'm making an honest attempt to see what you are actually proposing....

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 02:10 PM
... not "you can't say the word 'cunt', but: 'if you do use the word 'cunt', especially in certain public venues, you can expect for some people to find it objectionable."

But there are "certain public venues" where people will find all sorts of words or usages "objectionable". Words like 'shit' and 'fuck' are deemed unsuitable in 'polite society' (the House of Commons; News At Ten; in front of your gran) because they are simply 'obscene', not because they denigrate or discriminate against any particular group of people. And there are "certain public venues" where people will take offence at, for example, "Oh for God's sake" or "Come on you Reds!" or "Up the Provvos!" or whatever.

IdleRich
24-04-2008, 02:28 PM
"he simply pointed to the blindingly obvious fact that words have social and historical meanings, effects, and weight quite apart from their dictionary entry ..."
No-one is disagreeing with that though, the question is what the historical meanings of a particular word are, what its effects are and how much weight one person's view of it as offensive or otherwise should carry.


"'if you do use the word 'cunt', especially in certain public venues, you can expect for some people to find it objectionable." This makes perfect sense to me, but you so clearly objected to it, that I would like to try to understand where you are coming from. I don't say this sarcastically, I am genuinely curious."
Sure, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. Obviously some people find some words offensive but does that automatically mean that they are offensive? I probably wouldn't use any swearwords in front of my mum and I don't tend to use words like "cunt" on dissensus because people will probably be offended, that doesn't mean that in either case the words I refrain from using are actually offensive in themselves or that I think the people who would be offended would be acting rationally.


"since you called it 'lazy' and said that he's "missed the argument""
I said he's "missed OUT the argument" not "missed it" ie I do not mean that he missed the point of what I was saying, I meant that what he said was just some stuff with no coherent argument or, in fact, point to it.


"You, IdleRich, don't think that people should choose words according to those words' current social implications or associations or possible effects on others, the important point is that 'so long as my personal intention is not sexist, the word has no sexist effect'?"
No, that's not what I'm saying. Obviously when considering whether or not a word is sexist or offensive or whatever you have weigh up a number of things. One thing to consider is whether anyone finds it offensive - obviously that's not the whole story though because really anybody could choose to find anything offensive and that wouldn't get us anywhere. I would say though that ofen a greater number of people finding something offensive tends to give credence to the offensiveness of that word (though again not always). Another thing to consider is the usage of the word, both historically and present and whether someone who does find it offensive is acting reasonably in finding that word offensive taking into account all of this and also the context - obviously here we differ. Basically I don't think it makes sense to say that somebody using that word is sexist.

swears
24-04-2008, 02:49 PM
Back on topic:

Isn't it a bit dogmatic to have a concert against racism? Sure, personally I find racism distasteful, but isn't this event saying that the opinions of bigots aren't valid? That's just their truth, just because our truth is different doesn't give us the right to impose our views.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Back on topic:

Isn't it a bit dogmatic to have a concert against racism? Sure, personally I find racism distasteful, but isn't this event saying that the opinions of bigots aren't valid? That's just their truth, just because our truth is different doesn't give us the right to impose our views.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l148/CaptainOfTheWest/BlogPhotos/09_MordorTroll.jpg

Jonesy
24-04-2008, 04:13 PM
The words in that sentence make sense but because of the way you've written it it's almost as if you think that the bit after the "but" has some relevance to the bit before.
This is exactly the kind of lazy nonsense I'm talking about "women get raped therefore you can't say cunt - simple". You missed out the argument.

You've taken what I said and reduced it down, adding "simple" at the end. My point was that men and women have some very different things to face in life (those stats I quoted being just one illustration). Our use of certain words is not without consequence and adds to a culture that clearly favours one gender over another.

I suspect that some get a juvenile thrill from using the word 'cunt' on an anonymous messageboard and winding up a few liberal types and that this is all a waste of breath.

crackerjack
24-04-2008, 04:20 PM
Back on topic:

Isn't it a bit dogmatic to have a concert against racism? Sure, personally I find racism distasteful, but isn't this event saying that the opinions of bigots aren't valid? That's just their truth, just because our truth is different doesn't give us the right to impose our views.

Then three cheers for dogma. This post is a textbook example of what happens when you get so used to relativising everything, you abandon all thought, all morality.

Are you seriously suggesting councils and other public bodies shouldn't promote community cohesion?

swears
24-04-2008, 04:33 PM
lol, jus' kiddin' guyz. ;)

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Are you seriously suggesting councils and other public bodies shouldn't promote community cohesion?

Come on crackerjack, he's clearly trying to wind people up (and succeeding, by the look of it), hence my troll picture.

hucks
24-04-2008, 04:39 PM
Come on crackerjack, he's clearly trying to wind people up (and succeeding, by the look of it), hence my troll picture.

I was really wondering why someone was putting up pictures of Orcs...Back in my teenage Warhammer days I'd have got that straight away.

crackerjack
24-04-2008, 04:42 PM
Come on crackerjack, he's clearly trying to wind people up (and succeeding, by the look of it), hence my troll picture.

Whoops, told you before i don't go for that Hobbity shit. Wondered what you were on about.

Back to work.

noel emits
24-04-2008, 04:43 PM
Cradle of Filth’s rubbish song "Jesus is a Cunt" was clearly bullshit and bogus. Jesus was many things but the last thing he was, was a cunt. Look into THE MODERN ANTIQUARIAN (Ch. 4.34), and you will see clearly stated the language roots of the word ‘cunt’. Cunt is a word of the Goddess, and alludes to birth and the bringing forth of life, ideas, etc; hence its relationship with the modern ‘conduit’, its lingering tainting of the female word ‘cunning’, and the reason for Hinduism having a Goddess named Kunti.

Jesus Christ was a patriarchal prophet as anti-female as we can imagine, so, contrary to Cradle of Filth’s determined assertion, Jesus was certainly not a cunt.

Mohammed also was not a cunt.

Neither was Moses a cunt, nor was Zarathustra a cunt.

However, from evidence in The Norse Myths, it can certainly be asserted that Odin in his earliest guise was definitely a cunt, as were (of course) Freyja and Frigg, from whom he seems to have learned a great deal. One of the main reasons I claim to be Odinist is because of his roots as a powerful God steeped in the female traditions. This manifests in his position as bringer of the poem or Ode, and in his clandestine practise of the female magic known as seething.

Many modern artists could be said to be conduits or ‘cunts’, dependent on how we view their roots. I would claim, for example, that the very patriarchal and compassionless artist Damien Hirst is clearly not a cunt, whereas Tracey Emin surely is. Nick Cave is in no way a cunt, whilst I clearly am a real cunt. The Stooges were never cunts but the MC5 were cunts every one (even changing the lyrical content of some of their songs because women found them unrighteous). (http://www.headheritage.co.uk/addressdrudion/44/2002)That should put the pussy among the pigeons.

swears
24-04-2008, 04:44 PM
Come on crackerjack, he's clearly trying to wind people up (and succeeding, by the look of it), hence my troll picture.

I was inspired by a remark Bill O' Reilly made during a "debate" he was having with Richard Dawkin. Dawkin asks something along the lines of: "Well, if your Roman Catholicism is right, are all the other Christians wrong?" O' Reilly replies with "Oh no, because that's just my truth, that might not be your truth..." I was all like "OMG, conservative pundit in pomo relativist shocker!"

vimothy
24-04-2008, 05:18 PM
http://www.historicimpressions.com/Sheela1L.jpg

stelfox
24-04-2008, 05:20 PM
the reason that "c*nt" is such an awesome, fantastic expletive has very little to do with gender dynamics at all. it's almost purely down to the fact that it is a single-syllable word comprised of two hard consonants: the "k" and the "t". it is my single favourite word in the entire english language. and when i say english, i mean english. it sounds absurd when said by anyone with a north american accent. it might well be wrong in all manner of ways, but liberal and repeated profanity is something that i am not prepared to give up in the name of politics.

vimothy
24-04-2008, 05:28 PM
In my experience, American's aren't very good at swearing.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 05:33 PM
I was inspired by a remark Bill O' Reilly made during a "debate" he was having with Richard Dawkin. Dawkin asks something along the lines of: "Well, if your Roman Catholicism is right, are all the other Christians wrong?" O' Reilly replies with "Oh no, because that's just my truth, that might not be your truth..." I was all like "OMG, conservative pundit in pomo relativist shocker!"

Haha, really? What a twat.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/certainty.png

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 05:34 PM
In my experience, American's aren't very good at swearing.

On the whole I'd agree, but 'douchebag' is awesome.

vimothy
24-04-2008, 05:35 PM
On the whole I'd agree, but 'douchebag' is awesome.

No, no it isn't.

crackerjack
24-04-2008, 06:10 PM
In my experience, American's aren't very good at swearing.

motherfucker, shitkicker, fuckstick and dicklicker say you're wrong.

vimothy
24-04-2008, 06:27 PM
motherfucker, shitkicker, fuckstick and dicklicker say you're wrong.

I heard someone on Kitchen Nightmares USA say, "You're a fuckin blow job!" in a Brooklyn accent and it sounded pretty cool.

swears
24-04-2008, 09:42 PM
Haha, really? What a twat.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ

Around 02:30.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 09:49 PM
motherfucker, shitkicker, fuckstick and dicklicker say you're wrong.

Nah, "fuckstick" is one of those words that's been made up by people who send spam emails. You know, the 'RupertFuckstickGargantuan' clan.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2008, 09:57 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ

Around 02:30.

Wow, only 44% of Britons are atheist or agnostic? I'm disappointed, the Swedes and Japanese are beating our arses in these stakes.

ripley
25-04-2008, 05:20 AM
I'm assuming you're at college, quite thick or living in a cotton wool world (or all three) but you really need to get over this lazy fall-back of accusing people who disagree with you of gleefully revelling in some overblown caricature of what you find offensive. Yeah, I'm sniggering and nudging Eric Idle every time I use bad language, even bloody makes me titter...

Still, "fighting for the right to use cunt" made me laugh, would make a great Manowar comeback LP title.

martin I'm just addressing this directly

but did you notice that there were a few other people posting in this discussion around the time I wrote that response, some very short posts, of three words, sometimes, centered on using words like "tit" and "twat"? I think gleefully revelling does pretty much cover it. Perhaps revelling in winding me up, as much as anything, but that is pretty much tee-hee-ing in a "we're pissing someone off! go us!" kind of way. So I was responding to more than just you but to a lot of the tone of the thread.

ripley
25-04-2008, 05:31 AM
Okay, having thought it over, I do think there is a difference between brits and americans when it comes to the use of the word "cunt." Probably that explains some of the disagreement on this thread.

in America it is much more rarely used, and usually applied to women. Overall, I think it is more heavily gendered. So perhaps I was being american-centric.

I cannot in all my 34 years ever remember hearing an american of any gender refer to a man as a "cunt," only heard it used to refer insultingly to women. And that often. (see, for example, a recent post on feministing.com (http://feministing.com/archives/009027.html) --not that i think many of you will!-- where they received another random piece of hate mail being called "stupid cunts"). Nearly every woman I know who has a web presence that gets at all significant has been called a "cunt" in the comments or via email, from anonymous jerks (or sometimes non-anonymous). I don't know if that's true for british women (or maybe they only get it from americans).

So I find it jarring here and elsewhere. It sounds hostile to me, and to a lot of americans I would believe it does as well. the magic of the internet is that different cultural assumptions and context clash much more easily.

So I can grant that in the UK the effect might be different (although I would like to hear that from a woman from the UK say that, I have to say - not that women can't use words in a sexist way, but it does rankle a bit to have a group of men lecturing a woman about what's really sexist). But the way the argument continued was so sexist and irritating it was hard to separate that from the content or the culture issue: I tried to convey how it sounded hostile and was basically told I was making it up, that i was "not a real feminist" etc etc.

a large amount of the argument, especially from Martin, was around what kind of person I was, how people like me, who pay attention to how language can reinforce social hierarchy, are deluded, how my concerns are stupid. I tried to keep my attention on the language itself, and the effects language can have, but it was hard not to get annoyed.

on reflection, while the effects of language are real, I'm willing to concede that they can change in cultural context. Although again, having (as far as I can tell) only men assure me about the cultural context for a possibly sexist word is a bit off-putting... given the gender situation on dissensus I shouldn't be surprised I guess.

and now, on the the topic! ROCK AGAINST RACISM - will they win, do you think? Rock, I mean?

mixed_biscuits
25-04-2008, 07:18 AM
motherfucker, shitkicker, fuckstick and dicklicker say you're wrong.

'Wiener,' 'Poindexter'

I agree with Stelfox on the c-word - it's an incendiary bomb of a short word that when used appropriately - with vigour and feeling - enhances everyone's lives immeasurably.

Bang Diddley
25-04-2008, 08:20 AM
To get on back on topic . . does pogo

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/rock-against-racism-remembering-that-gig-that-started-it-all-815054.html

Corpsey
25-04-2008, 09:07 AM
i did a whoopsie

down with racism, and that

HMGovt
25-04-2008, 09:56 AM
'fucktard' is a good US swear word. only works on a screen, never to be used as a spoken word.

"Jesus, Troy, you're such a fucktard"
"The world is full of fucktards. Ask Mike, he sees the fucktards"

See, doesn't work.

noel emits
25-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Wow, only 44% of Britons are atheist or agnostic? I'm disappointed, the Swedes and Japanese are beating our arses in these stakes.
Probably preferable to beating stakes in our arses. Well, each to their own of course.

IdleRich
25-04-2008, 10:02 AM
"I tried to convey how it sounded hostile and was basically told I was making it up, that i was "not a real feminist" etc etc."
Apologies Ripley, certainly didn't mean to offend or seem hostile, I guess that's just the way I argue, sorry about that.


"in America it is much more rarely used, and usually applied to women. Overall, I think it is more heavily gendered. So perhaps I was being american-centric."
In the episdode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry calls the guy a cunt (for dropping out at poker when he had the best hand) there seems to be some implication about the guy's sexuality - is that a connotation of the word in the US? As far as I'm aware it's not in this country.

noel emits
25-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I think it would be fair to say that in the UK for most people using or hearing the c word it has next to no association with any body parts or indeed anything beyond being a forceful and percussive insult. Maybe worth carrying out a street poll - excuse me madam, what first comes into your head when you hear the word cunt? ;)

It's very apparent from that CYE episode that the word has different implications in the US. Bloody funny though.

Also, I can see the complaint here but isn't it slightly odd to basically be saying that a word that is used in an intentionally offensive manner is unacceptable because it is offensive in the wrong sort of way?

noel emits
25-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Anyway, yes, back on topic - what knobshiners have they booked for this thing? Is Sting playing?

swears
25-04-2008, 10:29 AM
From the Independent article:

Thatcher was about to lift the white working-class right-wing vote and I think she successfully did that by talking about "people being swamped by an alien culture".

This is interesting, and something I've noticed before. Do you think that maybe the real reason extremist right-wing groups lost their momentum in the early 80s was that their attitudes were absorbed into the mainstream and diluted by a more nationalistic Tory party, more so than being defeated by left wing activists? I'm sure it's not just one thing or the other, but it's worth considering.

john eden
25-04-2008, 10:33 AM
From the Independent article:

Thatcher was about to lift the white working-class right-wing vote and I think she successfully did that by talking about "people being swamped by an alien culture".

This is interesting, and something I've noticed before. Do you think that maybe the real reason extremist right-wing groups lost their momentum in the early 80s was that their attitudes were absorbed into the mainstream and diluted by a more nationalistic Tory party, more so than being defeated by left wing activists? I'm sure it's not just one thing or the other, but it's worth considering.

I think it was a twin pronged approach - Thatcher attracted the hardcore xenophobes who were likely to vote NF.

RAR/ANL et al attracted young people and possibly stopped them becoming racist in the first place, or at the every least created a culture in which that was not acceptable.

Almost certainly a generational split in there as well.

martin
25-04-2008, 11:54 AM
Re cuntishness: OK, there seems to be some cross-the-pond variation I'm not aware of, in general in the UK men don't refer to women as 'cunts' (I imagine, thinking about it, that this would actually result in a smack in the mouth from someone else if done in a pub or on public transport). So apologies. I used to know a lesbian feminist who ranted about other women who found it offensive and she smashed a porn shop once, so I was just taking her side...I think...

Re RAR: I've very mixed feelings about this, not least because I dislike UAR / ANL and their way of going about things. There was a fine tradition in the 70s of RAR also using and discarding a lot of bands based on their political usefulness at the time.

It's sad that it takes big gigs to bring people together or to address concerns - y'know, jump around, get pissed, punch the air to Jimmy Pursey singing "White Riot" with Babyshambles, then go back home and do nothing. Ultimately it's just entertainment, the real work begins when somebody down the local starts going on about bloody ethnics. Regarding the line-up, I'm not sure who's on this weekend though I would like to see Wiley and Bishi, who's very good live, and possibly Paul Simonon's lot.

martin
25-04-2008, 11:58 AM
Do you think that maybe the real reason extremist right-wing groups lost their momentum in the early 80s was that their attitudes were absorbed into the mainstream and diluted by a more nationalistic Tory party, more so than being defeated by left wing activists?

I think it contributed, though stuff like the '77 Lewisham riot and physical confrontation played a massive part and proved they weren't the Aryan supermen they thought they were. Also add in factors like Colin Jordan from the British Movement (the ultimate self-styled 'nazi hardmen') being arrested for stealing womens' knickers, his replacement being outed as a member of British intelligence, and several hundred confused youths collapsing in a haze of Evostik, alcoholism, serious depression, in-fighting and backstabbing and jail terms...

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:04 PM
I think it was a twin pronged approach - Thatcher attracted the hardcore xenophobes who were likely to vote NF.

How large do you think this section of the population was?

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:05 PM
motherfucker

Actually, this is hardly a swear word.

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:12 PM
How large do you think this section of the population was?

Quite large, if I remember the stats. They were polling pretty respectable numbers I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Front

20,000 members in 1974

Stood for 303 seats in 1979 general election.

---

Couple of points - the wiki page attributes the collapse to Thatcher and the (collapse of?) ANL but also John Tyndall bankrupting the party by standing 303 candidates, many with no accompanying electioneering.

My understanding is that the BNP is in a much healthier position now than the NF was in the late 70s - for example they are beating mainstream parties in local elections as a matter of routine, and have a small but significant number of local councillors.

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:12 PM
I cannot in all my 34 years ever remember hearing an american of any gender refer to a man as a "cunt," only heard it used to refer insultingly to women. And that often.

I think we can all agree that it can be a very hateful word if used with that intent. One only has to listen to some misogynistic industrial ranting (Whitehouse, Brainbomb, etc) to hear "cunt" as a derogatory, anti-female insult.

That said, it doesn't have to be. I don't ever hear it used in that context in my day-to-day life. Mostly (like swearing in general), it's a term of affection. "Oi, you big cunt! How the hell are you?"


'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Should I split this thread or are people ok with it? I don't mind either way but we are basically having two discussions here?

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:26 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Front_Election_Results

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:33 PM
Couple of points - the wiki page attributes the collapse to Thatcher and the (collapse of?) ANL but also John Tyndall bankrupting the party by standing 303 candidates, many with no accompanying electioneering.

Interesting -- weird that Thatcher can be a (neo) liberal and an anti-liberal at the same time!



My understanding is that the BNP is in a much healthier position now than the NF was in the late 70s - for example they are beating mainstream parties in local elections as a matter of routine, and have a small but significant number of local councillors

What do you think is the cause of the rise of the BNP (beyond the obvious)? I guess that mainstream parties just ignore this type of thing and this demographic...

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:39 PM
Interesting -- weird that Thatcher can be a (neo) liberal and an anti-liberal at the same time!




What do you think is the cause of the rise of the BNP (beyond the obvious)? I guess that mainstream parties just ignore this type of thing and this demographic...

I think the Tory party has always had a weird division between outright libertarians and bigots basically. And of course opportunists who play to both camps...

I think BNP are doing so well because the mainstream parties have been pandering to middle england / middle class votes and this has created a vacuum. And the BNP have filled that vacumm by going out to people who don't feel their problems are being addressed by mainstream politicians...

Meanwhile the left have been more concerned with the problems of people in Iraq and Palestine...

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:40 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Front_Election_Results

God, it'd be a bit easier if they just gave you the totals. As a percentage of the total vote, how much did the NF get overall? And the same question, re the BNP.

Mr. Tea
25-04-2008, 12:40 PM
Interesting -- weird that Thatcher can be a (neo) liberal and an anti-liberal at the same time!

Come on, surely it's not that hard to grasp that you can be economically liberal and socially illiberal, is it?

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:42 PM
God, it'd be a bit easier if they just gave you the totals. As a percentage of the total vote, how much did the NF get overall? And the same question, re the BNP.

I know what you mean! I'll try and have a dig.

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:47 PM
I think the Tory party has always had a weird division between outright libertarians and bigots basically. And of course opportunists who play to both camps...

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I mean, you might well be right, but I feel uneasy about such broad generalisations. It reminds me of the kind of discourse that currently surrounds McCain's economic policies on mainstream econ blogs. "Faith based economics" etc. You know the kind of thing -- my enemy is either a tool or a liar, but my camp are naturally very different.

(Full disclosure: I have never voted Conservative and don't intend to start now. However, I would do so if I thought that it was worth it).


I think BNP are doing so well because the mainstream parties have been pandering to middle england / middle class votes and this has created a vacuum. And the BNP have filled that vacumm by going out to people who don't feel their problems are being addressed by mainstream politicians...

Meanwhile the left have been more concerned with the problems of people in Iraq and Palestine...

Sounds true to me. How can you reach angry white working class people who think that they should get first dibs on council houses and more benefits?

[Sorry -- that's probably a generalisation as well...]

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:50 PM
In last May’s local elections the BNP polled 14.7% in the 742 wards it contested across the country. The highest average regional vote was in the Eastern region where the party achieved 19% of the vote in the 65 wards contested. The lowest regional vote was 11.1% in the South West, where the BNP fielded 34 candidates. If even its lowest regional average was replicated in London then the BNP would be on the verge of winning three seats on the Assembly.

The BNP is hopeful of success. In the 2006 local elections the party polled 41% in the wards it contested in Barking and Dagenham. It gained councillors in Havering and Redbridge, and overall it averaged 25% of the vote in the 27 wards it contested.

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=218

There is a risk of comparing apples and pears I think as the wiki page for the NF is for parliament, whereas the data above is for local elections.

But looking at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party_election_results

I think it's pretty clear the BNP are doing better than the NF did then.

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:50 PM
Come on, surely it's not that hard to grasp that you can be economically liberal and socially illiberal, is it?

It was really a bit of a playful dig aimed at John -- but for the record, it's not possible to be a "neo-liberal", i.e. a classical liberal, and socially illiberal at the same time.

Of course, it is possible to be economically liberal and socially illiberal (US conservatives), just as it's possible to be economically illiberal and socially liberal (US liberals). It's a mad old world...

vimothy
25-04-2008, 12:53 PM
The National Front are still active, it seems. The BNP are doing much better, though.

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:57 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I mean, you might well be right, but I feel uneasy about such broad generalisations. It reminds me of the kind of discourse that currently surrounds McCain's economic policies on mainstream econ blogs. "Faith based economics" etc. You know the kind of thing -- my enemy is either a tool or a liar, but my camp are naturally very different.

(Full disclosure: I have never voted Conservative and don't intend to start now. However, I would do so if I thought that it was worth it).



It probably is a generalisation but you only have to look at the pro and anti- euro tories to see that there is a fair bit of variation in views there.




Sounds true to me. How can you reach angry white working class people who think that they should get first dibs on council houses and more benefits?

[Sorry -- that's probably a generalisation as well...]

Well the traditional left (like 30 years ago? longer?) would have got around this by emphasising class over race, and organising collective campaigns to improve the housing situation for working class people as whole.

Things are so fucked up now I don't really know where to start, but the approach I am talking about (and a lot of the analysis) comes from the Independent Working Class Association - http://www.iwca.info which emerged out of anti-fascist discussions in the mid 90s about the new direction for the BNP.

john eden
25-04-2008, 12:59 PM
The National Front are still active, it seems. The BNP are doing much better, though.

The NF are basically irrelevant I think, as with the other fringe far right groups. They sort of exist for people who think the BNP is too soft*, or who have fallen out with them.

*Ha ha - or not "pure" enough...

vimothy
25-04-2008, 01:10 PM
It probably is a generalisation but you only have to look at the pro and anti- euro tories to see that there is a fair bit of variation in views there.

No, I agree that there is variation. I was just unsure if I would describe the variation as being between bigots and libertarians. Seems too easy to me. You might be right though. What the hell do I know?


Well the traditional left (like 30 years ago? longer?) would have got around this by emphasising class over race, and organising collective campaigns to improve the housing situation for working class people as whole.

Obviously not my bag, so I feel unsure of how I feel about this. That said, you're right about this,


Things are so fucked up now I don't really know where to start,

And the need to do something different.

vimothy
25-04-2008, 01:14 PM
"I feel unsure of how I feel about this"?

Urgh -- what a horrible sentence

crackerjack
25-04-2008, 03:06 PM
God, it'd be a bit easier if they just gave you the totals. As a percentage of the total vote, how much did the NF get overall? And the same question, re the BNP.

The NF won more votes than the Liberals in the 1975 (I think) local elections in the places where they stood.

Re rise of BNP, they've taken enormous care to moderate their thug image (although they can never quite lose it) and curb their wilder policies. They no longer propose forced repatriation of all non-whites and the days when their leaders do TV interviews surrounded by pics of Hitler (as Tyndall did) are long gone.

john eden
25-04-2008, 03:09 PM
The NF won more votes than the Liberals in the 1975 (I think) local elections in the places where they stood.

Re rise of BNP, they've taken enormous care to moderate their thug image (although they can never quite lose it) and curb their wilder policies. They no longer propose forced repatriation of all non-whites and the days when their leaders do TV interviews surrounded by pics of Hitler (as Tyndall did) are long gone.

They've also ditched the holocaust revisionism afaik. Used to sell books and mags about that from their shop in South London (this was early 90s?). No doubt many of the hardcore are still believers but it's the mark of a fringe nutjob so you can see why it wouldn't be public policy.

crackerjack
25-04-2008, 03:09 PM
In my experience, American's aren't very good at swearing.

Americans also swear far more....picturesquely.

Watching The Wire the other day (again), Bubs on Johnny: "he's the laziest white boy ever to shit between two shoes".

crackerjack
25-04-2008, 03:12 PM
They've also ditched the holocaust revisionism afaik. Used to sell books and mags about that from their shop in South London (this was early 90s?). No doubt many of the hardcore are still believers but it's the mark of a fringe nutjob so you can see why it wouldn't be public policy.

Like this young cunt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Collett

Mr. Tea
25-04-2008, 03:15 PM
Like this young cunt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Collett

Pffft:


From Rothley, he was educated at Loughborough Grammar School and the University of Leeds where he gained a 2.2 in Economics.

Says it all, really. :)

Mr. Tea
25-04-2008, 03:16 PM
They've also ditched the holocaust revisionism afaik.

Muslims are the new Jews, innit.

Bang Diddley
25-04-2008, 03:19 PM
little vid on the beeb . .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7351610.stm

IdleRich
25-04-2008, 03:21 PM
"Muslims are the new Jews, innit."
BNP are trying to attract the Jewish vote in East London now (don't they have a Jewish canidate or something?) - unite against the common enemy.

vimothy
25-04-2008, 03:24 PM
Muslims are the new Jews, innit.

Not all the time.

http://hikma.co.uk/dh/images/hitler.jpg


...in Palestine (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,104125,00.html), an Arabic translation of Mein Kampf was recently number six on the bestseller list, according to book traders in Ramallah.


Mein Kampf (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/29/turkey.books), the book Hitler wrote in prison before he rose to power in 1933, has become a bestseller in Turkey, provoking consternation.
The dreams of creating a master race are being snapped up by young Turks. Its publishers believe that more than 100,000 copies have been sold in the past two months.

ripley
25-04-2008, 10:16 PM
It was really a bit of a playful dig aimed at John -- but for the record, it's not possible to be a "neo-liberal", i.e. a classical liberal, and socially illiberal at the same time.


what if you use the word "neo-liberal" to mean whatever you wish it to mean? ;)

that's amazing about the BNP trying to attract the Jewish vote..

Mr. Tea
25-04-2008, 10:42 PM
Yeah, there were running street battles in Whitechapel in the '30s between Jews (and no few non-Jewish anti-fascists) and Mosely's BUF, and there was more anti-semetic violence from neo-Nazis in the '50s. I should imagine the East End's Jews have a longer memory than that.

KernKätzchen
25-04-2008, 11:04 PM
I hope they've booked Morrissey as a surprise guest act.

Haha! Strangely prescient of you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7367945.stm

KernKätzchen
25-04-2008, 11:15 PM
So I can grant that in the UK the effect might be different (although I would like to hear that from a woman from the UK say that, I have to say - not that women can't use words in a sexist way, but it does rankle a bit to have a group of men lecturing a woman about what's really sexist).


I'm a woman living in the UK. The word 'cunt' is normally used to describe men - or people in general - rather than women, and I certainly don't hear it as sexist at all when used in this manner. 'Cunt' is not normally used to describe a woman - at least I've never heard it used this way. If you want to insult a woman in the UK, 'bitch' or 'cow' are the gender-specific words to use. Hope that clears it up for you. :)

mistersloane
26-04-2008, 01:08 AM
I'm a woman living in the UK. The word 'cunt' is normally used to describe men - or people in general - rather than women, and I certainly don't hear it as sexist at all when used in this manner. 'Cunt' is not normally used to describe a woman - at least I've never heard it used this way. If you want to insult a woman in the UK, 'bitch' or 'cow' are the gender-specific words to use. Hope that clears it up for you. :)

I wish I could say that was the case, but in my manor - currently Bermondsey - cf 'Nil By Mouth', the film - that the epithet is used pretty much all the time, throughout sexes, unless it's a younger man, in which case they are called 'boy', a word which I personally have bigger problems with than 'cunt'.

I would agree with both Ripley and Stelfox about usages - to approach the word from a feminist perspective is entirely correct, and it's perpetually shocking within this forum to see a lack of feminist ideology - i.e literally people who haven't read shit and don't know what they're fucking talking about - chatting, but I also agree with Stel that it's an amazing word to say, assonance wise. Vim also correctly pointed out that it's also used as a term of affection, there seem to be three uses - admiration, affection, and abuse.

I spoke to a friend about this, and in Glasgow, from what the friend has said, that he has never heard the word referred to as a synonym for vagina, which is interesting. To the extent that at 15 they thought that the word meant 'bastard' only worse.

Like I said that's fascinating for me cos it's used every three words round our way.

Mr. Tea
26-04-2008, 01:14 AM
in which case they are called 'boy', a word which I personally have bigger problems with than 'cunt'.


?

craner
26-04-2008, 09:30 AM
Nick Griffin's 2 big influences are Julius Evola and the Romanian Iron Guard. I always think that this should be mentioned every time he or his party appears in public.

john eden
26-04-2008, 09:46 AM
Yeah, there were running street battles in Whitechapel in the '30s between Jews (and no few non-Jewish anti-fascists) and Mosely's BUF, and there was more anti-semetic violence from neo-Nazis in the '50s. I should imagine the East End's Jews have a longer memory than that.

I wouldn't have thought they would be very successful with the intiative, but it was gobsmacking seeing Nick Griffin on Newsnight talking about the tradition of immigration into this country - Hugenots, jews, etc... but then going on to say that enough was enough and that all hard drugs were connected to Islam.

craner
26-04-2008, 09:57 AM
Always worth checking out some of the old hits from Griffin's formative National Front proto-BNP milieu, such as comrade Derek Holland's tract The Political Soldier (1984),


a manifesto of the new NF elite of racial nationalism to counter "the forces of Evil swamping the entire globe in an ocean of Filth, Curruption and Treason." Both the global dark age and the past failures of the NF could only be rememdied by the Political Solider, a "New Type of Man." Holland evoked Codreanu's Legionary Movement of the Romanian Iron Guard, with its cult of death, as the outstanding example of political soldiery in the twentieth century: "[Men] will sacrifice anything and everything for the victory of their Ideal." The Islamic Revolutionary Guards of Iran were also cited as fanatical, spiritual warriors with a similar contempt for death. Evola's anti-modernity and warrior ethics of the "Holy War" led the NF "Political Soldiers," like their Italian models, to embrace pro-Islamic positions, with public support for the anti-Western, national revultionary regimes of Muammar Qaddafu abd Ruhollah Khomeini in Libya and Iran. By the end of 1989, Nick Griffin, Derek Holland and the Italians had finally left the NF to establish the International Third Position.

Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke Black Sun (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Sun-Esoteric-Politics-Identity/dp/0814731554/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209200020&sr=1-1)

crackerjack
26-04-2008, 10:05 AM
I wouldn't have thought they would be very successful with the intiative, but it was gobsmacking seeing Nick Griffin on Newsnight talking about the tradition of immigration into this country - Hugenots, jews, etc... but then going on to say that enough was enough and that all hard drugs were connected to Islam.

The good (!) thing about them is that you barely have to scrtatch the surface to see how little they've really changed.


One candidate, Nick Eriksen, was sacked this month after the Evening Standard reported that he had described rape as a "myth" and said that "some women are like gongs - they need to be struck regularly".

Interesting how their mayoral candidate was a gay porn director. Wasn't homosexuality one of the reasons why they split from the NF (which reputedly had quite a few gays in the heirarchy)- or did i just imagine that?

craner
26-04-2008, 10:13 AM
Wasn't homosexuality one of the reasons why they split from the NF (which reputedly had quite a few gays in the heirarchy)- or did i just imagine that?

No, it's true.

Mr. Tea
26-04-2008, 11:47 AM
but then going on to say that enough was enough and that all hard drugs were connected to Islam.

No doubt our binge-drinking is all their fault too.

tht
27-04-2008, 01:10 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hbrZvKnYHBo

Martin Dust
27-04-2008, 06:44 PM
Wasn't homosexuality one of the reasons why they split from the NF (which reputedly had quite a few gays in the heirarchy)- or did i just imagine that?

No, it's true.

Martin Webster if I remember correctly, he's still writing NS newsletters.

martin
28-04-2008, 10:50 AM
Great, I don't know shit, cheers professor. I'll keep it zipped in future.

Ah, fuck this forum, I'm off. I just wanted to see what people thought about RAR, ie- waste of time? outdated entertainment form? something positive? - not get slated as a closet misogynist on the basis of a word (that I've used umpteen times on here, and so have others) by some lazy fucking American DJ. Incidentally, I didn't go to RAR yesterday cos seeing Don Letts, Paul Simonon and Jimmy Pursey on stage is the equivalent of George Formby and Vera Lynn performing at the original one in '78.

vimothy
28-04-2008, 11:51 AM
what if you use the word "neo-liberal" to mean whatever you wish it to mean? ;)

Touche. It's true though, neo-liberal means pretty much whatever anyone wants it to mean. Ditto neo-conservative.

john eden
28-04-2008, 12:12 PM
Great, I don't know shit, cheers professor. I'll keep it zipped in future.

Ah, fuck this forum, I'm off. I just wanted to see what people thought about RAR, ie- waste of time? outdated entertainment form? something positive? - not get slated as a closet misogynist on the basis of a word (that I've used umpteen times on here, and so have others) by some lazy fucking American DJ. Incidentally, I didn't go to RAR yesterday cos seeing Don Letts, Paul Simonon and Jimmy Pursey on stage is the equivalent of George Formby and Vera Lynn performing at the original one in '78.

It's been an interesting discussion I think.

What is different now, maybe, is that we can look back on a tradition of of active anti-racism in music. So perhaps it's useful for "kids of today" to see that the influences on the music that they like were actively involved with anti-racist struggles.

On the other hand maybe young people don't want guys the same age as their dads lecturing them from the stage - but being old I find this pretty conservative and ahistorical. Perhaps the issue is the content of what they say and the qualityof the music and not how old they are I dunno.

Nobody would bat an eyelid if the Abyssinians sang "Truth and Rights" at an anti-racist carnival and they are way older than Jimmy Pursey.

In terms of whether it is effective I have mixed feelings. Basically I am in favour of people coming together for a free festival and being exposed to different music and sometimes the basics need restating.

On the other hand it seems to me that there is a lot less casual racism around in 2008 than there was 30 years ago. So I would imagine that there is even more preaching to the converted going on than at the 1st one.

As has I think been said above, contemporary fascism is no longer about controlling the streets so there is less need for people to come together en masse and realise their collective strength (although - again, this is a good thing in and of itself).

So to sum up - racism is different now, fascism is different now. A different kind of opposition is probably needed now. But until that happens the odd free festival isn't such a bad thing.

STN
28-04-2008, 12:40 PM
The Abyssinians are way better than Jimmy Pursey, which is why no one would bat an eyelid if they played.

Did anyone actually go down to Vctr Prk for this?

gabriel
28-04-2008, 01:52 PM
i thought it was a bit embarassing and rubbish (not to mention, er, racist?) that in radio 4's coverage of the RAR thing this morning the people they interviewed and mentioned were all white except david mcalmont - jimmy pursey (actually i've no idea if he's white, but i assume so), damon albarn, the clash, don letts, hardfi, babyshambles etc. would've been nice to hear wiley et al go head to head with john humphrys

Mr. Tea
28-04-2008, 02:03 PM
i thought it was a bit embarassing and rubbish (not to mention, er, racist?) that in radio 4's coverage of the RAR thing this morning the people they interviewed and mentioned were all white except david mcalmont - jimmy pursey (actually i've no idea if he's white, but i assume so), damon albarn, the clash, don letts, hardfi, babyshambles etc. would've been nice to hear wiley et al go head to head with john humphrys

So do you think Wiley wanted to go on the show, but was denied? Or just not invited in the first place? Or did he perhaps view the whole thing (RAR, I mean) as a gig like any other?

I suppose what I'm getting at is: is it possible that racism as an issue these days is something that bothers well-meaning white folks more than it bothers a lot of black and Asian people? I'm certainly not saying this is the case, I just thought it might be worth exploring...

crackerjack
28-04-2008, 02:05 PM
The Abyssinians are way better than Jimmy Pursey, which is why no one would bat an eyelid if they played.

Did anyone actually go down to Vctr Prk for this?

I got down for the last hour to see Good, The Bad, The Queen. Them apart the stuff from the stage was like a timewarp - union leaders making speeches about unity, Jerry Dammers (who now speaks in a very cockney accent, btw) DJing with Police & thieves and Slavery Days

random blokes trying to lead the crowd in chants of "fuck the BNP" didn't really get anywhere. there was a sense of disconnect between the audience and the event, i thought. sure everyone there thinks racism is bad and the BNP are arseholes - they just dont want to be lectured on it while waiting in the rain for bands to come on. i imagine most people went away thinking it was a decnet day out, for free

the finale kind summed things up - dammers came on with a massive horn section, introduced Kode 9 to do a version of Ghost Town which he said was the only one he'd heard since his own that wasn't crap. It was reeeeeeaaaallly slow, kept slowly building like it was gonna go off - and then stopped. it was like it closed on a shaggy dog story.

crackerjack
28-04-2008, 02:06 PM
i thought it was a bit embarassing and rubbish (not to mention, er, racist?) that in radio 4's coverage of the RAR thing this morning the people they interviewed and mentioned were all white except david mcalmont - jimmy pursey (actually i've no idea if he's white, but i assume so), damon albarn, the clash, don letts, hardfi, babyshambles etc. would've been nice to hear wiley et al go head to head with john humphrys

don letts is black (at least in part)

gabriel
28-04-2008, 03:33 PM
yeah, actually i think i got that doubly wrong as i meant jerry dammers not don letts being referred to on the radio 4 thing, i always confuse those two for some reason. and i've got no idea what either of them look like.

i'd assume radio 4 simply didn't invite wiley as their demographic is basically middle aged white people who know who the abovementioned people are and don't know or care about wiley, bashy, chipmunk, whoever else was playing yesterday (i think the age thing is more important than the race thing in this case anyway)

i know what you mean, i'm sure wiley doesn't care about not being on radio 4, but whichever way you look at it, doing a feature on a love music hate racism gig and only banging on about old white (ish) guys seems a bit weird?

mos dan
28-04-2008, 03:50 PM
i'd assume radio 4 simply didn't invite wiley as their demographic is basically middle aged white people who know who the abovementioned people are and don't know or care about wiley, bashy, chipmunk, whoever else was playing yesterday (i think the age thing is more important than the race thing in this case anyway)

i know what you mean, i'm sure wiley doesn't care about not being on radio 4, but whichever way you look at it, doing a feature on a love music hate racism gig and only banging on about old white (ish) guys seems a bit weird?

possibly tangential to your point, but i'm sure i read on grimeforum that wiley didn't show.. did any of the grime youngers perform?

bit lame of me not to make it along, i had work to do :(

gumdrops
28-04-2008, 03:52 PM
doing a feature on a love music hate racism gig and only banging on about old white (ish) guys seems a bit weird?

seems pretty standard to me.

Grievous Angel
28-04-2008, 04:00 PM
the point of having old white guys in lmhr is to get exposure in media outlets that will run those people on account of their recognisability and articulacy.

pr lesson #1 - don't have a spokesperson your target audience don't know about / care about / understand.

Transpontine
28-04-2008, 11:14 PM
I went along for a bit - made me think I was too young for the first RAR festival in Vcitoria Park and too old for the new one as lots of 14 year olds ran around watching The View.

I thought as a musical event it didn't really work, the sound was really quiet even close to the main stage. Some of the speeches were embarrassing too. Bashy interjected a bit of atmosphere, but couldn't go wrong as he was bashing out indie boucealong samples like Franz Ferdinand, Nirvana, Blur and Eurythmics.