Rock Against Racism '08

[ripley]

No, what it comes down to is YOU personally find it offensive and don't want to hear it, so you'll brand anyone who uses it* as 'sexist', regardless of the word's origin, subsequent mutation and the intent in the usage.

(*unless they're a musician, artist or someone you respect, in which case it's highly provocative, challenging, etc)

no, what it comes down to is that anything that makes you have to question your own behavior is just Too Hard so instead you pretend that language has no meaning or context outside of what you want to give it

You guys can revel in saying naughty words (oo you said that one, tee hee) that all rely on using women's body parts as insults all you want. But don't kid yourself that it doesn't rely on sexism, and reinforce it.

and your asterisk is just silly. First of all, it's not about me at all actually, because you have no idea what makes me respect someone. But the point I already made appears to have gone right over your head - it's not WHO is saying it as how it is used. It's not that difficult. If you can't tell the difference between using "cunt" to mean "something bad" and using "cunt" to mean "something good" then you're just not thinking. And the idea that I am the only person to find using it as in insult is offensive is ridiculous.

we've heard the "meaning has changed" argument a million times for different words. But the first point it's not up to the people who are not denigrated by the term to decide when it's not offensive. I'm not claiming to speak for all women, but its pretty rich when someone who is apparently member of the group NOT being insulted gets to tell me what's insulting to me. (Correct me if I'm wrong martin and you are female). But beyond that, there are certainly women who are sexist, once again, ultimately it's about how the term is used, not who is using it.

This gets to IdleRich's question about why using "dick" as an insult is not as problematic. Which is another thing some people here seem to have an amazingly hard time with. the idea that we aren't floating in some contextless vacuum when we interact with each other.

It's because the system of oppression and devaluation based on gender does not go equally in both directions. it is women who are systematically devalued. So using a term that relies on a negative assumption with women plays into that system. Using a term that relies on a stereotype of men does not weaken the position of men in society to the same extent.

think of any other (socially constructed) binary system of oppression you like - with your language can either reinforce it or you can sidestep it or maybe you can challenge it.

and to some extent I wonder if you know all this. Because if it was no big deal you'd just say "yeah, it is a bit sexist. But i don't care/it's not that important/it's how I was raised" or something. but instead we get people fighting for the right to use cunt as an insult but have it not be degrading to women. spare me!

 

[swears]

You know, I don't find the term "cunt" offensive when directed towards a man, but calling a woman that is really shocking. It's like something a proper angry nutter would say. I suppose "arsehole" is a better, gender-neutral term.

 

[Mr. Tea]

What about when women use the word (as an insult, I mean)? Is it 'allowed' under that circumstance, like black people saying "nigger", or something?

 

[Martin Dust]

I like it as a word, it gets used a lot in Sheffield.

 

[viktorvaughn]

Interested only because Roll Deep, Wiley, Tinchy & Jammer are there.

And HLC...

 

[nomos]

I think the way the word resonates in the UK v. North America is very different. Over here you rarely hear and it can silence a room. It's well beyond 'fuck' on the swearing scale. I've heard of visiting Brits discovering this quite awkwardly. But over there it seems like its effect has been numbed by dissociation and repetition. At least that's my impression given how readily it's tossed around.

 

[Corpsey]

''Beloved Cunt?!''

 

[swears]

Maybe it's different in the states, hardly anyone in the UK ever uses "cunt" or "twat" to actually refer to a vagina, 99% of the time it's used as an generic insult towards a man.

 

[martin]

You guys can revel in saying naughty words (oo you said that one, tee hee)

but instead we get people fighting for the right to use cunt as an insult but have it not be degrading to women. spare me!

I'm assuming you're at college, quite thick or living in a cotton wool world (or all three) but you really need to get over this lazy fall-back of accusing people who disagree with you of gleefully revelling in some overblown caricature of what you find offensive. Yeah, I'm sniggering and nudging Eric Idle every time I use bad language, even bloody makes me titter...

Still, "fighting for the right to use cunt" made me laugh, would make a great Manowar comeback LP title.

 

[IdleRich]

"I think the way the word resonates in the UK v. North America is very different."

I was going to ask if this was the case actually. Although I have (very occasionally - in fact once) heard people in England say that the word is unnaceptable it seems to be much more the case in America. Not sure why this should be the case though.

"This gets to IdleRich's question about why using "dick" as an insult is not as problematic. Which is another thing some people here seem to have an amazingly hard time with. the idea that we aren't floating in some contextless vacuum when we interact with each other.
It's because the system of oppression and devaluation based on gender does not go equally in both directions. it is women who are systematically devalued. So using a term that relies on a negative assumption with women plays into that system. Using a term that relies on a stereotype of men does not weaken the position of men in society to the same extent."

The disagreement is not due to a lack of context on my part, it's more that the context that you are assuming for the word's use is incorrect here. I don't think it is a negative link with woman, I think that calling someone a "dick", "twat" or "arse" is a deliberate linking with the so-called "unclean" parts of the body. It's not the femininity of the part that that makes it an insult it's the fact that it's the part used in sex and or excretion and I think that this is clear from the symmetry of the usage. I'd pretty much agree with what my girlfriend says, if you consider comparing someone with the rude bits on a woman worse than comparing them with the rude bits on the man doesn't that make you a bit sexist? The sexism inherent in the word is only there if you already make the (sexist) assumption that woman is linked with negativity.

 

[benjybars]

''Beloved Cunt?!''

haha... there's quite a lot of 'cunt'-related storyline in CYE... definitely seems to be more taboo in the states.

go to any football match in the uk (actually, maybe just West Ham) and it will be the most regularly used word of the afternoon.

 

[petergunn]

what time are Tom Robinson Band playing?

 

[Immryr]

idlerich is 100% OTM.

 

[aMinadaB]

idlerich is 100% OTM.

No he's not. Not even close.

Let's take a look:

The disagreement is not due to a lack of context on my part, it's more that the context that you are assuming for the word's use is incorrect here. I don't think it is a negative link with woman, I think that calling someone a "dick", "twat" or "arse" is a deliberate linking with the so-called "unclean" parts of the body. It's not the femininity of the part that that makes it an insult it's the fact that it's the part used in sex and or excretion and I think that this is clear from the symmetry of the usage. I'd pretty much agree with what my girlfriend says, if you consider comparing someone with the rude bits on a woman worse than comparing them with the rude bits on the man doesn't that make you a bit sexist? The sexism inherent in the word is only there if you already make the (sexist) assumption that woman is linked with negativity.

Contra IdleRich 'unclean' is hardly the sole or even primary purpose for referring to genitalia in insults... there are many motivations and reasons, this has been studied rather extensively ....

First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps .... The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it.

What has always been interesting to me about discussions such as the one above -- and especially the defensive comments made -- is encountering the person who beats their chest in some sort of moralizing 'gotcha' moment to say, 'no no no, if you can say dick, i can say cunt, what's the difference?'

First of all, what is the motivation behind that wish to equivocate? "I can say cunt, I really can!!! Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!" etc etc, same old boring story ... people used to say EXACTLY the same thing about the word n#gger, negro, 'colored' people, etc ... which was patently absurd then, as now ... "No, no, we're not racists, it's just how people talk, don't judge us, we're good folks, it's just the way it works around here "... I heard that plenty in the late 70s.

As someone living in the US, I can say that I agree with all of what Ripley wrote above. It's not even controversial, what she says, it's certainly not 'politically correct,' it's just basic behavior among people who pay attention to what they say, and who spend time around politically active people. If you care about making a difference, you practice what you preach in your daily life, rather than seeking to justify lazy linguistic usage.

 

[Mr. Tea]

First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps .... The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it.

This may all be true in and of itself, but it totally ignores the fact that male genitals are given negative associations, too: have you never heard someone say "Oh, he's a total cock", or "What a dickhead" or "Don't talk bollocks!"? Or said any of those things yourself? If a 'pussy' is a coward then a 'dick' is an idiot*; I wouldn't particularly want to be thought of as either.

I will give you that 'cunt' is generally regarded as The Worst Word - worse than 'cock', most of the time, at any rate - but I wonder how much of this is due to feminists' fetishisation of the word as somehow worse than any other? (It didn't used to be obscene (just like all our good old Anglo-Saxon words such as 'shit', 'arse', 'fuck' and so on); in fact it's cognate with the ancient Greek gyne, 'woman'.) All this is by the bye, though: my point is that your argument would hold water if linguistic associations with male sex organs were either positive or at best neutral, but this clearly isn't the case.

*or, indeed, a 'wanker' or 'tosser': another male-specific sex insult..

 

[Jonesy]

Saying that the use of male genitalia as an insult is equal to using 'cunt' for the same purpose is not very intelligent.

'Cunt' and 'cock' are not used in a social vacuum but in a (UK) society where 167 women are raped everyday and two women are killed at the hands of their partner/former partner every week.

Of course users of the word aren't wifebeaters and rapists but there IS a culture of misogyny that is reinforced by language. So don't be surprised if you get called up on using certain language.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Saying that the use of male genitalia as an insult is equal to using 'cunt' for the same purpose is not very intelligent.

I didn't say it was "equal", I said it was insulting, in a different (and, admittedly, usually less insulting) way.

 

[Martin Dust]

what time are Tom Robinson Band playing?

Exactly

 

[IdleRich]

"First of all, if people wanted uncleanliness to be the point, presumably they'd use terms referring to people's mouths, breath, fingertips, scalps ...."

Come off it, I said "unclean" meaning not literally unclean (hence the scare quotes) but the parts that are decreed as "shameful" and which society decrees must be covered up (ignoring the question of whether you really think your mouth is dirtier than your bum).

"The word 'pussy' in American English is not used to signify uncleanliness, it's used by sports coaches, Really Tough Guys, and Really Cool Guys everywhere to indicate that the addressee is weak, cowardly, unmanly. You know, "Don't be a pussy!" It's an ugly usage and completely unnecessary, which is why you'd rarely hear it used in social company in the US. The repeated usage of the word in this context reinforces its negative meaning, and contributes to a sexist semantics, and reinforces asymmetric relations of power and violence between 'real men' and 'pussies' in society, which of course is a binary based on male/female, strength/weakness etc. Like Ripley, I can't believe that this is controversial, much less that people are denying it."

Well (leaving aside the fact that you've changed from "cunt" to "pussy" to find a link that suits what you're saying), I'm sure you're right that sports coaches and the like deliberately denigrate people by associating them with those they consider to be physically weaker and an obvious example of such a person is likely to be a woman. To me there is probably a problem with such a culture rather than the word they use to manifest that problem. It's kind of a bit cargo cult to think that if you don't hear the word that offends you then everything is ok.

"First of all, what is the motivation behind that wish to equivocate? "I can say cunt, I really can!!! Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!" etc etc, same old boring story ... people used to say EXACTLY the same thing about the word n#gger, negro, 'colored' people, etc ... which was patently absurd then, as now ... "No, no, we're not racists, it's just how people talk, don't judge us, we're good folks, it's just the way it works around here "... I heard that plenty in the late 70s."

I dunno, I think that the relevant question here is "what's the motivation to suddenly try and stop people using a perfectly good word?".

Just watch!!! If women can do it, I can do it!!"

Just occured to me that you might be referring to me talking about my girlfriend here. Maybe not, but just in case you are, it should be clear that I didn't say "they do it, so can I", I gave a fairly straightforward explanation of exactly why she (as an intelligent thinking person - but, yes you're right, a woman) has no problem with the word and why she tends to think that there is something a bit icky about those who do.

"As someone living in the US, I can say that I agree with all of what Ripley wrote above. It's not even controversial, what she says, it's certainly not 'politically correct,' it's just basic behavior among people who pay attention to what they say, and who spend time around politically active people. If you care about making a difference, you practice what you preach in your daily life, rather than seeking to justify lazy linguistic usage."

I think you've got it the wrong way round here again. To me it's lazy to hear someone say the word is unnaceptable and just nod sagely rather than thinking "hang on a minute, that doesn't make sense". When people are asked why they think it's unnaceptable they tend to make very vague appeals to a general context that somehow is supposed to explain what they're saying but I don't see any actual explanation.
Maybe the US/UK thing is an important distinction because in my experience it is not a word that has the meaning that it obviously does for you - I can only reiterate that in my experience it is not a negative relation to a woman but to rude bits.

"'Cunt' and 'cock' are not used in a social vacuum but in a (UK) society where 167 women are raped everyday and two women are killed at the hands of their partner/former partner every week."

The words in that sentence make sense but because of the way you've written it it's almost as if you think that the bit after the "but" has some relevance to the bit before.
This is exactly the kind of lazy nonsense I'm talking about "women get raped therefore you can't say cunt - simple". You missed out the argument.

 

[martin]

Two - Four-six- Eight
Cunt-a-way...