Reynolds on planet-mu

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nomadologist

Guest
Reason is the only thing which lets us escape the pleasure principle and its manifold traps, along with the obverse the human-as-animal.

Hmm interesting, do you think so? The reality principle serves that function for Freud, and even then, not very well. It could easily be said that the elevation of "reason" a la the Enlightenment Project is what got us into the capitalist mess to begin with (via utilitarianism, pragmatism, and eventually free market-based 'democracy' as Empire)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Hmm interesting, do you think so? The reality principle serves that function for Freud, and even then, not very well. It could easily be said that the elevation of "reason" a la the Enlightenment Project is what got us into the capitalist mess to begin with (via utilitarianism, pragmatism, and eventually free market-based 'democracy' as Empire)

Perhaps- but what other tool would you posit using against such forces? I mean would you argue that it is reason which maintains these forces today or what? It seems rather than reason to be a kind of reduced humanism (or what Badiou terms animal-humanism) / biopolitics, which forecloses the possibility of escape from its own inexorable reality, under the guise of recoiling in horror from, essentially, terror, as realised in the twentieth century. Its more a kind of nightmarish consenual common sense!
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
But how does this differ from the bread and circuses of Ancient Rome? In what sense is that specific to capitalist consumerism?

It differs from the bread and circuses of Ancient Rome in that the corruption at the heart of the political machine under capitalism is no longer a matter of a few officials who sell-out their own values or those of the Empire for immediate personal gain--under capitalism you have an entire economic system (and the class super-stratification that results) based on and in fact completely reliant upon corruption/the abandonment of principle in favor of individual gain on every level, in every sector, on every level, and even on the part of those who don't stand to immediately gain from selling out their own culture/values/eventual financial security.

I guess you'd say capitalism is systematic corruption, and a form that worked its way through the West warping the ontological horizon in its wake, replacing the individual/laborer with the "bottom line" while at the same time selling the populace the illusion that the individual was FINALLY free to be the moral and spiritual center of the universe. Under capitalism, the political sphere collapses, and you end up with entire "democracies" run by a handful of big-business special interest groups. Rather than having a system like Rome's, where the corruption at the top eventually topples the system, under capitalism you have a system that is impervious to corruption, that can in fact absorb any and all political corruption easily and only serves to gain from the multiplication of new forms of corruption. Far from "freeing" humanity so that we're finally more able to realize our full potential as human beings, the exact opposite happens. The egalitarian delusion we live under is just as dangerous if not more so than the Ancient Roman hierarchical social strata people fully accepted at the time.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Perhaps- but what other tool would you posit using against such forces? I mean would you argue that it is reason which maintains these forces today or what? It seems rather than reason to be a kind of reduced humanism (or what Badiou terms animal-humanism) / biopolitics, which forecloses the possibility of escape from its own inexorable reality, under the guise of recoiling in horror from, essentially, terror, as realised in the twentieth century. Its more a kind of nightmarish consenual common sense!
Biopolitics might be the stated or exo-ideology of our 'society', I think the mechanisms keeping it in place are nothing of the sort and more to do with symbolic manipulation on a massive scale. I'd say we need to look at using the same kind of techniques to counter it. 'Reason' isn't the whole story as we're talking about operating on minds at a pre-rational level - it's a creative, poetic, imaginal endeavor.

'Nightmarish consensual common sense' is an interesting perception - could it be that there are those reality constructs that the people have been persuaded to voluntarily accept and buy into.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Perhaps- but what other tool would you posit using against such forces? I mean would you argue that it is reason which maintains these forces today or what? It seems rather than reason to be a kind of reduced humanism (or what Badiou terms animal-humanism) / biopolitics, which forecloses the possibility of escape from its own inexorable reality, under the guise of recoiling in horror from, essentially, terror, as realised in the twentieth century. Its more a kind of nightmarish consenual common sense!

I don't know what tool you might posit, but I do think that reason is all too often the friend of the Id rather than a part of a system of checks and balances against it. Even the reality principle, ESP the reality principle, is vulnerable to corrosive forces like capitalism. In fact, I would say it's Reason qua the reality principle that makes capitalism chug along so mechanically unstoppably--were the reality principle not in place to ensure that people make self-preserving and stability-enhancing long term decisions/goals, the pleasure principle would basically have all of us spending all day everyday strung out on dope, or video games, or food, or what have you. This would eventually lead to the individual's hasty demise, or at very least an inability to function well enough to serve as an optimal consumer. It's the reality principle's dictates--balance business with pleasure! have just enough fun on the weekend to make your work week bearable!--that keeps us all plodding along.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
under capitalism you have a system that is impervious to corruption, that can in fact absorb any and all political corruption easily and only serves to gain from the multiplication of new forms of corruption.

Its free from being impacted by political corruption, true, but there are forms of corruption within capitalism which can undermine it, merely of a different nature. Though it is difficult to envisage a financial collapse strong enough to take the whole edifice with it, the recent credit crunch springs to mind as a form of corruption-within-capital: where greed and mendacity conspire together with a high level of abstraction and the sophistication of the credit system to begin to actually undermine the entire construct.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Why does this bring Vimothy so clearly to mind...

Isn't it ironic, too, that these same deluded "free market" egalitarians are so quick to jump on the pseudo-"sociobiological" determinism bandwagon and argue for the validity of the idea that intelligence is essential and racially contingent? The limits of their own imaginative powers when it comes to deluding themselves into believing we are equal in a free market fail rather quickly when you get them going on standardized testing. (Single parenthood is also seems to exert undue force over our society full of equal opportunity achievers, as well, I've noticed...)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
I don't know what tool you might posit, but I do think that reason is all too often the friend of the Id rather than a part of a system of checks and balances against it. Even the reality principle, ESP the reality principle, is vulnerable to corrosive forces like capitalism. In fact, I would say it's Reason qua the reality principle that makes capitalism chug along so mechanically unstoppably--were the reality principle not in place to ensure that people make self-preserving and stability-enhancing long term decisions/goals, the pleasure principle would basically have all of us spending all day everyday strung out on dope, or video games, or food, or what have you. This would eventually lead to the individual's hasty demise, or at very least an inability to function well enough to serve as an optimal consumer. It's the reality principle's dictates--balance business with pleasure! have just enough fun on the weekend to make your work week bearable!--that keeps us all plodding along.

But the pleasure principle in either its out-of-control mode or within the limits of what you're terming the reality principle undoubtedly serves consumer capital. Demand for dope, video games and food all results in expanding production, keeps the machine ticking over nicely. Obviously a terminal collapse into pure-pleasure-loop-circuitry would result in the collapse of this form of society. However, its the way the pleasure principle is enslaved to the other drives of Capital that make it so useful.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Its free from being impacted by political corruption, true, but there are forms of corruption within capitalism which can undermine it, merely of a different nature. Though it is difficult to envisage a financial collapse strong enough to take the whole edifice with it, the recent credit crunch springs to mind as a form of corruption-within-capital: where greed and mendacity conspire together with a high level of abstraction and the sophistication of the credit system to begin to actually undermine the entire construct.

Well, see, I happen to think that had we not stumbled on a huge largely untapped, unmined, and pre-deforested landmass abundant with natural resources at just about the same time the merchant class was rising and a bunch of religious fundamentalists needed a home where they could judge everyone else without fear of social retribution, "capitalism" as we know it may not have accelerated so fast nor spread so far as it happened to.

I keep saying to capitalist fundamentalists who really credit the System with, you know, civil rights gains and women's rights, and with all scientific progress and whatnot--wait just a minute. When this land dries up (and it's beginning to), we'll see just how well-oiled the capitalist machine can remain. I really do think that capitalism "lucked out" in a huge way. That's as optimistic as I get.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Well, see, I happen to think that had we not stumbled on a huge largely untapped, unmined, and pre-deforested landmass abundant with natural resources at just about the same time the merchant class was rising and a bunch of religious fundamentalists needed a home where they could judge everyone else without fear of social retribution, "capitalism" as we know it may not have accelerated so fast nor spread so far as it happened to.

I keep saying to capitalist fundamentalists who really credit the System with, you know, civil rights gains and women's rights, and with all scientific progress and whatnot--wait just a minute. When this land dries up (and it's beginning to), we'll see just how well-oiled the capitalist machine can remain. I really do think that capitalism "lucked out" in a huge way. That's as optimistic as I get.

Resource-wise you mean? Undoubtedly. Actually Capitalism is a massively precarious construct when you look at it. If a few parameters move this way or that, the whole thing is ENTIRELY fucked, and this has become ever more so as throughout the last century it complexified on the basis that what is now shall ever be (which it absolutely will not).
 
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nomadologist

Guest
But the pleasure principle in either its out-of-control mode or within the limits of what you're terming the reality principle undoubtedly serves consumer capital. Demand for dope, video games and food all results in expanding production, keeps the machine ticking over nicely. Obviously a terminal collapse into pure-pleasure-loop-circuitry would result in the collapse of this form of society. However, its the way the pleasure principle is enslaved to the other drives of Capital that make it so useful.

But demands for drugs of all kinds (opiates for the masses) require (as HMLT pointed out before) a "ban", they ultimately require limits and limitations, to continue to serve as production-expanding forces. Like monkeys, if allowed to go unchecked, humans self-destruct at the hands of powerful drugs: addictions ultimately make people unable to hold jobs, unable to function in society, stop people from spreading out their capital among a diversified portfolio of useless commodities. This is where capitalism becomes so hideously brilliant--ban these things, make addiction "criminal", enhance the pleasure people stand to gain from these activities by making them transgressive and be sure there is an entire penal code set up around them. This serves dual purposes, 1) to attract/seduce more people to give in and try these things that most would rationally be able to tell you are destructive, and 2) helps to create a million new commodities and industries all set up to "control" addiction. If people never had their reality principle tell them they needed rehab, there'd be tons of doctors, rehab centers, pharmacies, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, etc. all out of multi-billions of dollars.

Of course, any scientist who studies the mechanism of addiction will tell you that there's no better candidate for addiction than a person who feels unfulfilled, who has no values, who has no sense of duty to any cause higher than their own pleasure. Capitalism creates entire societies of "pre-addicted" addicts just waiting for their drug of choice...
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
I think 'consumer capital' is something of a red herring as a target. The machine doesn't run on 'money', what it really wants is your attention and hijacked imagination. That way you do all the work and manufacture the required reality. This 'capitalist' machine really functions as a bonus, a happy bi-product and ingenious mechanism, but it is not the fundamental trouble. I'm not sure what the real trouble is but I wonder why we always end up talking about 'emergent mechanistic processes'.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
In total agreement with you here. Indeed furthermore it seems obvious that drugs function as a tool which mops up those who have the most to gain from the overthrow/collapse of Capital, (the most disenfranchised) and turns them into harmless little loops of the hedonic mechanism.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Biopolitics might be the stated or exo-ideology of our 'society', I think the mechanisms keeping it in place are nothing of the sort and more to do with symbolic manipulation on a massive scale. I'd say we need to look at using the same kind of techniques to counter it. 'Reason' isn't the whole story as we're talking about operating on minds at a pre-rational level - it's a creative, poetic, imaginal endeavor.

'Nightmarish consensual common sense' is an interesting perception - could it be that there are those reality constructs that the people have been persuaded to voluntarily accept and buy into.

Noel, you're starting to sound a little like Lacan by way of HMLT. And I think you're right in a way--our psychic economy, as a mechanism that reinforces capitalism, is overrun by what you might call "symbolic maniupation" on a massive scale. I don't know if I think we're talking about operating at a "pre-rational" level as much as our society and individuals in it work on a psychological level and as such unconscious mechanisms are as important as conscious ones (Reason) in countering ideology or capitalism general.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
I think 'consumer capital' is something of a red herring as a target. The machine doesn't run on 'money', what it really wants is your attention and hijacked imagination. That way you do all the work and manufacture the required reality. This 'capitalist' machine really functions as a bonus, a happy bi-product and ingenious mechanism, but it is not the fundamental trouble. I'm not sure what the real trouble is but I wonder why we always end up talking about 'emergent mechanistic processes'.

Of course it doesn't function on "money", it functions on "capital", which is not roughly equivalent to money. I do agree that "immaterial labor" (attention and hijacked imagination) are just as important to capitalism as money. But I don't know if I'd say capitalism is simply a symptom of something else--I think capitalism is a virus and we've become the symptom. Unfortunately.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Of course it doesn't function on "money", it functions on "capital", which is not roughly equivalent to money. I do agree that "immaterial labor" (attention and hijacked imagination) are just as important to capitalism as money. But I don't know if I'd say capitalism is simply a symptom of something else--I think capitalism is a virus and we've become the symptom. Unfortunately.

As much as any idea is a virus though! But yes, a particularly virulent strain which seems impossible to shake off. But this is why the consumer dimension is as important as the capitalist one, in the way which it reconfigures the relation between the individual and the world, at the level of identity and interoperability...? And hence how it colonizes the imagination? Or rather, like a drug (for it is, surely, as much a drug as a virus) re-wires it for its own ends of self-replication, self-perpetuation, and self-maximization.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
As much as any idea is a virus though! But yes, a particularly virulent strain which seems impossible to shake off. But this is why the consumer dimension is as important as the capitalist one, in the way which it reconfigures the relation between the individual and the world, at the level of identity and interoperability...?

That sounds right...yes it's something like the relationship of microeconomics to macroeconomics...
 
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nomadologist

Guest
It's funny how much a good understanding of Freud/psychoanalysis enhances a study of Marx's ideas...it's almost as if the Freudian structural model of consciousness + free marketocracy + the rise of the modernist/fascist machine aesthetic created this really powerful political and economic cauldron . stir them up and magically the 20th century happens.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
But I don't know if I'd say capitalism is simply a symptom of something else--I think capitalism is a virus and we've become the symptom. Unfortunately.
I don't think capitalism is the whole story. We may be implicated in the construction and operation of capital whenever we use money or reinforce the relationships it defines but some other people are far more pro-active in their collusion. I don't think they are simply at the mercy of a viral construct, there is something more deliberate and directed going on. It's nice to pat ourselves on the back for our sophistication in avoiding conspiracy theory by talking about emergence and self-perpetuating viral memes but I'm really not so sure it 'just happened', and I'm not sure that capitalism is the fundamental problem at all, that just sets people like Marx up as saviours or opposites in the dialectic and we've already had that storyline.
 
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