cursing

[zhao]

don't know about other europeans (like Spaniards for instance), but seems to me Americans curse a lot more than Germans. here i get the feeling that only uneducated people use swear words a lot, where as in the US everyone does it, and sometimes especially intellectuals, i suppose trying to be hip or young or street or something.

someone said something about bad words are an indication of the insecurities and fears and apprehension and anxiety of a cultures. according to this theory Americans have some serious problems with sex, germans with shit, etc. i'm sorta, in some ways convinced.

my GF asked me why "sucks" means "terrible" and i really could not answer. it is so common place that i never ever stopped to think about it. and it's pretty sick now that i have thought about it. i am half heartedly trying to cut out vulgar language (at least in spoken conversation, web might take longer), and escape a bit of the American influence on my character...

 

[Tentative Andy]

I feel rather bad about using the c word as a swear or term of abuse, but still end up doing so quite frequently.

 

[Sick Boy]

The use of curse words has crippled my day-to-day spoken vocabulary.
I once had to do this interview for a radio show in Hamilton, and one of the hardest parts about it was not swearing. It felt like remembering to look in your rear-view mirror during a driving examination. Any time I opened my mouth, I had Jimminy Cricket on my shoulder going "don't swear don't swear don't swear don't swear".

Needless to say, I did.

 

[nomadthethird]

don't know about other europeans (like Spaniards for instance), but seems to me Americans curse a lot more than Germans. here i get the feeling that only uneducated people use swear words a lot, where as in the US everyone does it, and sometimes especially intellectuals, i suppose trying to be hip or young or street or something.

someone said something about bad words are an indication of the insecurities and fears and apprehension and anxiety of a cultures. according to this theory Americans have some serious problems with sex, germans with shit, etc. i'm sorta, in some ways convinced.

my GF asked me why "sucks" means "terrible" and i really could not answer. it is so common place that i never ever stopped to think about it. and it's pretty sick now that i have thought about it. i am half heartedly trying to cut out vulgar language (at least in spoken conversation, web might take longer), and escape a bit of the American influence on my character...

Zhao, I'm guessing you don't actually understand German yet. Because Germans do swear, all of the time. Just as often as Americans do, if not more so.

And Americans don't actually swear more often than anywhere else--in fact, the only place in the U.S. that I think people might swear more often than I've heard elsewhere in the world is in NYC. I have never noticed American "intellectuals" swearing more than anybody else. In fact, American academics are really, really exceptionally uptight about the touchy words like "bitch", "dick", "asshole", "bastard", etc. I would never use these in the presence of mixed intellectual company.

"Sucks" means terrible just like "bites" or "stinks" or "blows" or "bloody" means terrible, the implication is that this thing is so bad that it has a physical effect on you, usually it's a euphemism for having a sexual effect. Don't let German people fool you, they'd just take "scheiss" onto the beginning of anything instead of "sucks" for basically the same linguistic effect.

I think this post is especially funny because my parents have these South Indian teenagers who stay with them sometimes as a form of service through their church, and they always remark to me how funny it is how prudish Americans are about swearing, especially in the Southern states where they go to school.

 

[doom]

I'm a devoted swearer. They are magic, ancient words & I refuse to modify my speech patterns according to the whim of someone else. That said I have a pretty good internal censor & only ever swear in the correct context ie. not around my nan / job interviews etc.etc.

I feel this is due to always being allowed to swear, in the correct context & having learnt those 'rules' at a very early age because in the home there were no taboo words at all. (perhaps with the excpetion of the "C" word, but I won that argument in the end & my mum uses it as much as me now!)

With regards to certain words being taboo & indicating underlying "insecurities and fears and apprehension and anxiety of a cultures" wouldn't the idea then to be to move beyond these insecurities? that a free & open culture should have NO words that are taboo?

Your use of the word vulgar is illuminating here Zhao; if,

"In Medieval times, "vulgar" referred to texts written in a vernacular instead of Latin"

I like that quote because 'vernacular' has been / is used to very specific ends 'in the Colonies' & relates speciffically to power relations between groups of people.

The name "vulgar" simply means "folk", derived from the Latin word vulgaris, meaning "of people".

Any Latin speakers here?

 

[nomadthethird]

Agree about "vulgarity", Doom. Usually when people make a big deal about which words are taboo, it's in a condescending tone because women and children are too delicate to hear such foul talk. That should be reserved for drunken sailors and big strong men! Or it's in barely coded classist language about how coarse it is to talk like those kids who live on the other side of the tracks who don't know any better.

I understand being sensitive when it comes to using potentially racist or sexist or classist language, but I can't stand it when old men try to tell me what I can and cannot call my cunt. I also do not like being told what kind of sex I'm supposed to enjoy, and how I'm supposed to enjoy it, but I get this so often and so relentlessly it feels like I'm Alex from A Clockwork Orange sometimes, with my eyes pulled open as pictures of drinking hot cocoa and spooning on the couch in a cashmere sweater are endlessly propogated on me.

But regarding latin, nobody speaks it. It's a dead language. You can only read it and maybe hope to pronounce it correctly.

But I can usually make it out because it's similar to Greek grammatically provided I have a dictionary nearby for unknown vocabulary.

 

[doom]

Sorry, should have stuck in.

I'm assuming that translation of vulgar is correct, especially as the German is sorta half-way between (sort-of)

Not being vulgar is ssssooooo 19thC & Swearing for the sake of it is ssssoooo 20thC

 

[nomadthethird]

Sorry, should have stuck in.

I'm assuming that translation of vulgar is correct, especially as the German is sorta half-way between (sort-of)

Not being vulgar is ssssooooo 19thC & Swearing for the sake of it is ssssoooo 20thC

O I get it. Yes you're right I think. Also, the "vulgate" Bible was the first common translation. Only it was crap because it was translated from other Latin translations instead of original manuscripts in a lot of parts.

I need to sleep one of these days.

 

[doom]

Or it's in barely coded classist language about how coarse it is to talk like those kids who live on the other side of the tracks who don't know any better.

In a modern context. I always understood that in the Western European (British inparticular) context it goes back to French being the Official language of Norman Britain & mono-syllabic Anglo-Saxon words being pushed out of use. So piss is replaced by urinate, fuck becomes intercourse etc.etc.

Which follows right the way thru The Empire. I heard an interview once with Fela Kuti where he talks about being told to speak a 'proper language, like English' not 'vernacular'

I def. get you on the 'Clockwork Orange' feeling as well! This is still A MASSIVE hang up in Australia & quite overt at times. I was told off by a friends GF once for using the term 'missus' as it was 'bogan' ... actually she didnt tell me off, she moaned to a friend with me in earshot, because telling me off would have required actually pinning it down.

 

[nomadthethird]

In a modern context. I always understood that in the Western European (British inparticular) context it goes back to French being the Official language of Norman Britain & mono-syllabic Anglo-Saxon words being pushed out of use. So piss is replaced by urinate, fuck becomes intercourse etc.etc.

Which follows right the way thru The Empire. I heard an interview once with Fela Kuti where he talks about being told to speak a 'proper language, like English' not 'vernacular'

Huh interesting. Fuck, if I'm not mistaken, comes from "frikken", which is either German or Dutch originally and I think may have referred only to bovine sex but don't quote me on it.

I can totally picture a German person telling Zhao not to swear as much, really. Because a German person would be deaf to their own swearing and hear only the weird American curses. I know that's what a lot of people do when they learn another language at school--they learn the polite version. So when they hear the real one, the colloquial one, full of slang, it sounds very strange and actually less wooden and archaic than what they've learned, but they don't realize it's just the way that language is actually spoken.

I love the Quebecois curses I've heard. They say the weirdest shit. Like "tabernacle!"

 

[nomadthethird]

Mozuss!

 

[doom]

Huh interesting. Fuck, if I'm not mistaken, comes from "frikken", which is either German or Dutch originally and I think may have referred only to bovine sex but don't quote me on it.

Which would be awesome as fricken (or however you wanna spell it) is now like a default 'prime time' 'family friendly' tv version of fuck!

I love the Quebecois curses I've heard. They say the weirdest shit. Like "tabernacle!"

So going to try & use that in that context now!

Yeah, I think Germans are telling Zhao off for bad language, cos he's not speaking German! To Germans, all English / American words are naughty

 

[zhao]

well this is interesting. just talked to girlfriend about it again, and she claims with absolute certainty, without any doubts, that Americans swear more than Germans. (she grew up in east germany and has been going to uni and working in west for the past 10 years) she says of course there are certain cultures like 15 year olds in Kreuzberg for instance who want to be gangster that curse a lot, but in general, it is much more shocking in germany to use a word like mushi (pussy) than in the US. she says you can easily see this in real life and in the movies, like when in Deadwood Al says "free pussy for the next 15 minutes", the german subtitle says "free women"...

but i suspect it must be actually pretty difficult to pin down exactly which culture uses bad language more. you'll probably get 15 different answers from 15 different people of different backgrounds.

no german has ever told me to swear less. it is just something i was thinking about and was talking to GF about.

sorry i should not have made it sound like American intellectuals swear more than the gen. population... only wanted to note that they do sometimes, for effect... (and i find it kind of charming actually when it happens)

i don't speak german yet, but from hanging out with germans who speak fluent english, i also get this feeling, even from just the tones, that they use "forceful" or strong language less (may be just a sign of more repression?). could be me but i can't really imagine germans sitting around trendy bars saying things like "that shit fucking sucked" in the entirely casual and everyday fashion that i and my american friends do.

i have also grown used to, and become fond of using such language. it is pretty much second nature by now... but when i stop to think about it... i mean oral sex is one of the most beautiful things in the world to me, and to use a word having to do with it to mean "horrible" is just not right.

frikken... huh. GF is not sure of the linguistic roots. but i thought FUCK came from "Fornication Under Consent of the King"? the story behind which i forget... something to do with catholicism in mideval england?

 

[Dunninger]

Huh interesting. Fuck, if I'm not mistaken, comes from "frikken", which is either German or Dutch originally and I think may have referred only to bovine sex but don't quote me on it.

The german word is "ficken" and as far as I know it originally meant just rubbing and grinding. But today it's only used for intercourse.

I've never really compared the swear word ratio of german vs. english, but I'd say germans swear about as much. As someone said upthread it's nearly always "scheisse" or otherwise shit-related, the english language is a bit more creative in that department. I think the use of swear words related to sex is much more common in english, so maybe that stands out for german ears.

 

[doom]

...snip... like when in Deadwood Al says "free pussy for the next 15 minutes", the german subtitle says "free women"...

I think this just takes it back to what would have been said @ the time. The makers of Deadwood have said that they used modern words because watching people say 'dang' & 'consarnit' (SP?!) for an hour would seemed twee & would not have portrayed the frontier, rough & unlawfull nature of the time. In the 19thC saying 'free women' would have had the same effect as saying 'free pussy' does now.

TBH I don't think 'sucks' has anything concrete to do with the sexual connections of that word. Its more what nomadthesecond was saying about these words being used in the sense that the thing in question is so good, or, so bad that they have an actual physical effect on you. As in, 'A is so bad, you've sucked the good out of B'

I'd never considered the connection between the sexual use & the perjorative use, always just assumed it was shorthand for 'remove' which is whats actually happening when you suck something up, ie hoovering.

 

[zhao]

off topic: hey Dunninger, i just now first time checked out your myspace and your invisible cat has some very eerily beautiful tones and textures. i was listening to Kenneth Kirtchner when her stuff came on and it was a very nice few moments of overlap... that MOTHERFUCKING SHIT of a site won't let me log in right now though or else i would be sending you this on there. (downloading the no-type album...)

 

[IdleRich]

"Sucks" means terrible just like "bites" or "stinks" or "blows" or "bloody" means terrible, the implication is that this thing is so bad that it has a physical effect on you, usually it's a euphemism for having a sexual effect.

I thought that "bloody" was a contraction of "by our lady" so it's religious rather than sexual. Similarly "gor blimey" as us cockneys say is a corruption of "God blind me" I believe.

"In a modern context. I always understood that in the Western European (British inparticular) context it goes back to French being the Official language of Norman Britain & mono-syllabic Anglo-Saxon words being pushed out of use. So piss is replaced by urinate, fuck becomes intercourse etc.etc."

I have also heard that this is the case.

 

[baboon2004]

I feel rather bad about using the c word as a swear or term of abuse, but still end up doing so quite frequently.

One of my favourite quotes, possibly from joan Rivers:

"I really don't like using that word, but some people just are cunts."

 

[baboon2004]

the english language is a bit more creative in that department. I think the use of swear words related to sex is much more common in english, so maybe that stands out for german ears.

The Englsih language is incredibly creaative in this regard. In French for example, one cannot string together swear words in the same way, or (I believe) conjugate new swearwords (fuckwit, fuckmonkey, tossclump) with anywhere near the same amount of latitude that English speakers are allowed.

It's fucking great.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I like 'twunt', because it's *technically* not obscene on account of not meaning anything, although it's patently obvious which two words have been used to create it. I think we have Chris Morris to thank for that one.