poetix

we murder to dissect
Why I think Badiou is worth bothering with:

i) He presents a concept of truth which does two important things at the same time:

i.i) It says that there are truths (plural), and that these are not reducible to opinions, cultural preferences or figures of ideology.

i.ii) It completely separates truth from knowledge. You don't come to know a truth by studying higher mathematics, reading deeply of the great poets of the Western Tradition (tm) and attending reverently to the sage words of an intellectual master. You construct a truth by doing-thinking, in equality with others, and come to embody a finite part of the truth in doing so. A truth can only appear where knowledge gives out, where there is something genuinely new to be thought and done.

ii) He does not present his own philosophy as a truth of this kind. Knowing Badiou - knowing his texts and his arguments exceedingly well, down to the last detail - will not bring you the slightest bit closer to any truth. It may however help to persuade you that there are truths, and that they are worth fighting for.

iii) He esteems cultural and intellectual greatness, but does not regard it as the centre of all human value. He acknowledges plainly that no amount of philosophy or mathematics will emancipate suffering humanity. He does not regard philosophy and mathematics as worthless activities because of this. The humanity he wishes to see emancipated is a humanity that is capable - all of it, no matter how mean its circumstances or limited its horizons - of creation, of participation in the doing-thinking that makes a new truth, be it artistic, scientific, political or amorous.

iv) He recognises that violence and terror are an unavoidable part of the creativity of political truths. He rejects the contemporary moral consensus that says that a world without truths is a price worth paying for the physical safety and social peace of a sheltered minority.

iv.i) Speaking as a member of that sheltered minority, I don't feel at all comfortable about this. I don't want to indulge in any false bravado about being ready to die for a worthy cause. Still less do I wish to surrender myself to the reckless obscenity of declaring my readiness to kill for one. When I think about the last hours of the Paris Commune, or the frenzy of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, I am afraid.

iv.ii) Nevertheless, I agree with Badiou that we must not allow the managers of our wealthy societies to use the fear of violence and terror to force us to accept the world as it - precariously - is. That world is already a violent and terrible place. We must accept rationally, even if it is impossible to accept emotionally, that history has not ended with us, that our safety and prosperity are a temporary illusion, and that there is a great deal still to be done.

v) He makes intelligible, for the educated reader who is not a mathematical adept, mathematical concepts of tremendous beauty and power.

v.i) Only a minority of people, even in our wealthy societies, are fortunate enough to have been educated to the point where they will be able to encounter these concepts through Badiou's texts. And of those that have, not all will want to progress through the often ponderous demonstrations through which they are carefully exposed. Nevertheless, for those who have had the good fortune to become members of that large literate public that an affluent society affords, and who have the desire to educate themselves about some of the great intellectual accomplishments of 20th century mathematics, Badiou is an able and enabling tutor.

v.ii) Politically speaking, Badiou's commitment to conceptual clarity and transmissibility militates against the authoritarian obscurantism of a Heidegger or a Lacan. His prose style is certainly "elevated", and his language full of the terms of art of the specialist discourse that 20th century French philosophy has become, but when it comes to the formal dimension of his argument, he takes enormous pains to be unambiguous and consistent. Quite simply, it is possible for him to be wrong - demonstrably and corrigibly wrong - in a way that it is never possible for Lacan to be wrong.

vi) He pisses off all the right people. Badiou reports that Derrida said to him, during a period of late rapprochement, "at least we have the same enemies". Those are enemies worth having: one should be proud to have acquired them, and endeavour to affront them in all things.
 
Last edited:

poetix

we murder to dissect
I bet if you looked, you'd find chess players in the slums of Calcutta.

A Persian-Iranian friend was telling me that the clerical authorities in Iran once issued a decree stating that chess-playing was un-Islamic. They then discovered that most of the Iranian soldiers in the front line of the Iran-Iraq war that was raging at the time were playing chess with each other in between getting gassed, bombed and shot at, and found it expedient to reverse that judgement.

Talk about being too concerned with basic survival for cerebral distractions. I bet some of them were writing poetry too, like the inmates at Guantanamo. The incorrigible elitists!
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Not that chess is synonymous with intellectual pursuits, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of chess players around the world are neither white (China, India, Middle East?) nor old - some may even be female.

Who would be surprised by that? I wasn't addressing chess there. I was speaking to a very specific contingent of academia.

Ever played mancala? I don't know how popular it really is but an Indian person taught me to play. It's very simple, but somehow more addictive for it. Somewhat like tetris.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Why I think Badiou is worth bothering with:

i) He presents a concept of truth which does two important things at the same time:

i.i) It says that there are truths (plural), and that these are not reducible to opinions, cultural preferences or figures of ideology.

i.ii) It completely separates truth from knowledge. You don't come to know a truth by studying higher mathematics, reading deeply of the great poets of the Western Tradition (tm) and attending reverently to the sage words of an intellectual master. You construct a truth by doing-thinking, in equality with others, and come to embody a finite part of the truth in doing so. A truth can only appear where knowledge gives out, where there is something genuinely new to be thought and done.

...

When the first two are so obviously wrong, why continue?

I've accepted rationally the fact that the world is a violent and terrible place and that it most likely always will be until there aren't any organic life forms living in it.

That is why I will refuse to actively participate in violence, for any reason, even and especially not in service of the delusion that if I only kill/maim myself or my cronies into "power" (which is so diffuse now as to be completely out of reach anyway), that the world will be a better place. Were I to successfully do so, thenI would be no better than any other power broker, and then I would be the one who needed overthrowing, and the one with the sin to answer for. Violence is base and lewd and sadistic, and I won't have anything to do with it. It's the least rational act there is.

The endless cycle of destruction, idiocy, and mindless self-preservation can proceed without me. You can have your lame hunger for "power", and let yourself be destroyed by it. Don't expect everyone to laud you as humanity's great hope and salvation for it.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I'm glad someone finally clued me in that the Torah's authority is non-existent since Spinoza's day. For most of my life I was foolish enough to believe that there was a sizeable population of practicing Jews in the world for whom the Torah's authority is still very real and significant.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
“It comes down to the fact that this giant of human thought, who [thinks] about neither mediation (the Party), nor mediators (party cadres) nor milieus (like those of the intelligentsia) nor the means (of distribution) [is] the least political of theoreticians. The author of [Being and Event] would not be able, I think, to adequately explain to himself the power that his mobilizing -ism would one day exert over...men”
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
The mathematicians I've spoken to tell me that it's basically OK - there's plenty of scope for disagreement over the "meta-ontogical" philosophical framework he builds around them, but the technical presentation of mathematical topics in Badiou is usually pretty faithful to his sources (e.g. Goldblatt on topoi) and often quite a bit easier to follow.

I did a fair bit of preparatory work before starting to read Logics of Worlds, and didn't find Badiou's discussion of Heyting algebras jarringly inconsistent with what I'd read of them up to that point. I think he tends to take the advice of working mathematicians. I imagine it would be a mortifying embarrassment to him if it turned out that he had got something egregiously wrong.

Lacan uses mathematical notation the same way he uses natural language, as material for puns; and Deleuze is more interested really in the intuitions behind mathematical notions than in deploying them in any formally consistent way. Neither is committed to the mathematics in such a way that their non-kosher use of it invalidates them as a thinker; whereas a fault in Badiou's maths really would amount to a fault in his system, simply because of the way in which the maths is used to give form to the system. (Nowhere is it suggested, however, that the maths proves the system...)

Thank you Poetix, that was actually really helpful

But this:
"I'd forgotten that piece. One of his best I think. "
Surely you must be joking? (Please?) :eek:
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
When the first two are so obviously wrong, why continue?

That - "obviously wrong" - sounds less like "heresy" to me than it does like an assertion of orthodox commonsense.

Needless to say, it's supposed to feel wrong - viscerally wrong, so wrong you'd be wasting your time even trying to begin to reason with someone who didn't just viscerally feel how wrong it was, who didn't feel its wrongness in the same way as you and every right-thinking person. It is an infuriating, heretical position, a brazen repudiation of what "everybody thinks"...
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
“It comes down to the fact that this giant of human thought, who [thinks] about neither mediation (the Party), nor mediators (party cadres) nor milieus (like those of the intelligentsia) nor the means (of distribution) [is] the least political of theoreticians. The author of [Being and Event] would not be able, I think, to adequately explain to himself the power that his mobilizing -ism would one day exert over...men”

Heidegger on Hitler, presumably.

I now declare this thread officially Godwinned.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
That - "obviously wrong" - sounds less like "heresy" to me than it does like an assertion of orthodox commonsense.

Needless to say, it's supposed to feel wrong - viscerally wrong, so wrong you'd be wasting your time even trying to begin to reason with someone who didn't just viscerally feel how wrong it was, who didn't feel its wrongness in the same way as you and every right-thinking person. It is an infuriating, heretical position, a brazen repudiation of what "everybody thinks"...

You must be joking.

This is exactly the same sort of shit you'd hear sitting in front of many pulpits west of Turkey. You'd hear it at a neo-nazi rally. You'd hear it if you were sitting within ear shot of a 9-11 truther. It's a very simplistic, easy statement to make. And it's made all the time. "There are Truths, and these must be adhered to at all costs."

This is stupid either/or thinking. Difference is difficult to negotiate therefore let's pretend it doesn't exist and simply seek power over all of those Others towards whom we have no responsibility. Because there's a certain discourse of multiculturalism that is problematic it's either choose that or choose dogma. There's never any other option.

Btw, the difference between us is that I don't believe that I am heretical. You seem to believe you are, however. I don't think I have all the answers. When I look at the world I mostly have questions and no answers. I also do not believe that I understand capital-t Truths that others don't, and therefore anyone who doesn't subscribe to the Truths I've settled on deserves to die.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Talk about being too concerned with basic survival for cerebral distractions. I bet some of them were writing poetry too, like the inmates at Guantanamo. The incorrigible elitists!

Not to mention soldiers in the trenches in WWI. Isn't war one of the great catalysts and inspirations for poetry? - not from a position of detached reflection, I mean, but as it's experienced by the poor fuckers on the front line. I dunno, I guess that's your department really (poetry I mean, not war).
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
That - "obviously wrong" - sounds less like "heresy" to me than it does like an assertion of orthodox commonsense.

Needless to say, it's supposed to feel wrong - viscerally wrong, so wrong you'd be wasting your time even trying to begin to reason with someone who didn't just viscerally feel how wrong it was, who didn't feel its wrongness in the same way as you and every right-thinking person. It is an infuriating, heretical position, a brazen repudiation of what "everybody thinks"...

By the way, it's not even slightly "infuriating", it's just kind of sad and embarrassing that people on the "Left" think being Timothy McVeigh is something everyone should attain to.
 
Top