Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[Mr. Tea]

I think that a state of war existing is enough to legally justify taking the fleet.

But a state of war with whom? Not 'Palestine', or a part of Palestine, since Israel recognises no such country. With Hamas, maybe, but the shipment was of humanitarian aid for Gazan civilians, not weapons or 'materiel' for Hamas. Is Israel likely to take the line that since Hamas controls Gaza, any aid sent to Gaza would end up in direct possession of Hamas and even if it's just civilian supplies, it's still 'succouring the enemy' and therefore makes a legitimate target?

Edit: certainly not saying I think this would be a defensible argument, just wondering if it's the kind of line Israel might take. Legal or not, I think the blockade is an outrage in the first place, just wanted to make that clear.

 

[droid]

IL nitpicking again.

But fine, I accept that the legal case against Israel may not be 100% triple bound, watertight and sealed in concrete even though Israel has argued against their own position in the past when it suited them, that Gaza is not part of Israel and has sovereign claim over its own territorial waters and the blockade violates IL on multiple counts and is recognised as legal by no other state.

 

[vimothy]

But a state of war with whom?

With Hamas.

Whether the ship carried food and medicine and not contraband is the issue. I think Israel has the legal right to determine whether this is indeed the case. You can start with any assumption (supplying terrorists, humanitarian aid), but the Israeli position will be to say that it wanted to check for contraband and that it will pass any supplies which don't qualify as contraband on to Gaza.

Maine:

This branch of International Law is complex and difficult, but it owes its intricacy and difficulty to one special question: what are the articles stigmatised as contraband? From the very first, Grotius had laid down that things directly used in war — for example, weapons — were contraband. He also ruled that things useless in war, articles of luxury as he described them, were not contraband. But outside these categories there were a great number of things capable of employment both in war and peace — res ancipitis usus — and it is in regard to these that innumerable questions have arisen. Are articles of naval construction — for example, the raw materials of sails and cordage — contraband? Do they become so at any particular stage of manufacture? Are iron, brass, steel, etc. contraband? Are coals and horses? Are provisions contraband? To these questions all sorts of answers have been given. In many special treaties the list of contraband and non-contraband commodities is given, and the practice of states is extremely various. On the whole the most general rule which can be laid down is that, with the exception of weapons or munitions of war, the contraband, or non-contraband, character of the cargo must depend on its destination, and on the nature of the particular war which is going on.

 

[droid]

With Hamas.

Whether the ship carried food and medicine and not contraband is the issue. I think Israel has the legal right to determine whether this is indeed the case.:

Only if the blockade is lawful. It isnt. Which makes the entire point moot.

 

[vimothy]

IL nitpicking again

Yes, sorry, this does all seem rather academic. Fucking horrible thing when 16 (?) peace protestors taking food and medicine to people end up dead at the other end of soldiers gun.

 

[droid]

TBF, the whole situation is so mired in counter claim, propaganda and (deliberate) legal ambiguity it can be difficult to come to a fair conclusion - which is something that serves Israel's interests perfectly.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

didn't the exact same thing happen to one of your mates a few years back, padraig?

yeah, Tristan Anderson, last March. shot in the face w/a tear gas canister in a West Bank village while taking pictures there several hours after a demo against the Wall. wound up having part of his frontal lobe removed, was in a near-coma for six months. although, I guess more recently he's been doing better (relatively) - he's still blind in his right eye, the left side of his body is paralyzed, he has problems w/his short-term memory, impulse control, etc - that doesn't really convey how awful the ordeal was tho here's a recent, more-in depth FAQ on his condition & case written by his partner , at least now he's awake, able to move around (in a wheelchair) and do cognitive & physical therapy. it sounds like he's coming home to California soon (he's been in an Israeli hospital since the shooting), I really hope to see him next time I'm in the Bay Area. unsurprisingly, the criminal investigation into his shooting by the Israeli police was a total whitewash, tho his lawyers have filed an appeal to re-open it; there's also a pending civil case (more in the FAQ).

even a year later the whole thing still makes me boil with indescribable rage when I think about it. if you could've known him before - he was (still is, f**k, need to stop thinking about him in the past tense) just a gem of human being. one of the few.

 

[droid]

And since its been mostly left unsaid here, fair fucking dues to the people on those ships and the people in Israel who have the balls to do the right thing. I can barely even comprehend their bravery and lack of self regard.

Here's one who's still missing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caoimhe_Butterly

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you know one of the first things that always springs to mind when one of these outrageous, terrible incidents occurs is how goddamn difficult the Israelis - not all Israelis, but you know what I mean - make it for people of good will to support Israel. it's like an endless campaign to drive away everyone but the delusional hardliners. f**king bitter harvest those dudes are going to reap. you can only bomb the village to save it so many times.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

in re: Turkey - there won't be any military reprisals, of course, & I doubt Turkey would even do something as (relatively) belligerent as send warships to guard future aid flotillas. for one, I don't think they really care that much about the Palestinians, & for another how would it benefit them? OTOH, Turkey has often functioned as a kind of out to the Muslim world for Israel, and that's got to be in serious jeopardy. losing Turkey as a mediator, & an indirect channel of communication w/various parties in the Arabic world (not least Hamas etc) would be huge. military cooperation is probably done for the moment as well (the Turks just canceled a planned joint exercise), though U.S./European assuaging might be able to retrieve that eventually. mostly it's just crazy for the Israelis to be pissing off any potential ally who can help them counterbalance against the Arab Muslim bloc - next you know they'll be starting a shooting war with the Phalange and persecuting the Druze, I swear...

 

[droid]

Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.Israel said 10 people died while those on the ship said at least 15 were killed.

A shocked world has responded with outrage. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals.

Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

Israel has sounded an alert throughout the country fearing rocket attacks by Hezbollah in Lebanon.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy...s-to-send-supplies-to-gaza-with-naval-escort/

Bluff?

 

[droid]

The BBC :slanted:

How can they expect anyone to have the slightest faith in their credibility after the Gaza debacle?

 

[droid]

Good interview with Chomsky on Israeli TV, prescient words towards the end:
Finkelstein comments on the flotilla:
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/finkelstein310510.html

Spot on wrt the 'lunatic' theory. Israel's own variation on Nixon's favourite tactic.

 

[vimothy]

I've watched a couple of the IDF's videos on their YouTube channel. It appears as though passengers on the Mavi Marmara attack the commandos first, though obvious caveats apply.

I think that the law is such that Israel is allowed to seize ships on the high seas to the extent that their self defence requires it. Searching a ship to make sure that it doesn't contain military equipment for an entity with which it is engaged in hostilities could conceivably meet that. So it doesn't only hinge on whether the blockade was legal or whether the ship was in Israeli territorial waters.

The problem with the IL focus is that it is reductive and therefore demands of the participants / belligerents a much weaker standard of behaviour than ought to be demanded. Obviously, the issue is a lot bigger than whether the action was legal or not. Even if it was, it doesn't mean that it was right or smart or professional.

 

[droid]

As I mentioned upthread, the videoes do not show the start of the attack. The 4 witness statements that have come out so far contradict the Israeli account, as does the raw AlJazerra video, which apparently shows the boat under attack prior to the commandos landing. If the Israelis injured or killed protestors through firing rubber, live rounds and stun grenades (as is alleged) prior to the main assault, it shows the actions of those onboard the ship in a somewhat different light.

Turkey is not a belligerent, Israel is not at war with Turkey. The right to stop and search does not apply. The activists were entitled to fight back, insane an act as it was.

 

[vimothy]

If the Israelis injured or killed protestors through firing rubber, live rounds and stun grenades (as is alleged) prior to the main assault, it shows the actions of those onboard the ship in a somewhat different light.

Agreed.

Turkey is not a belligerent, Israel is not at war with Turkey. The right to stop and search does not apply. The activists were entitled to fight back, insane an act as it was.

Not Turkey, Hamas. Israel is is searching the ships to ensure that "contraband of war" does not reach an entity with which it is engaged in hostilities, or so it can plausibly claim. It seems to me that Israel does have the right to do this, even in international waters.

 

[vimothy]

Proportionality of Israeli use of force is another issue, obviously.

 

[droid]

Not Turkey, Hamas. Israel is is searching the ships to ensure that "contraband of war" does not reach an entity with which it is engaged in hostilities, or so it can plausibly claim. It seems to me that Israel does have the right to do this, even in international waters.

We've been here havent we?

Only if the blockade is lawful. It isnt.

 

[Brother Randy Hickey]

And since its been mostly left unsaid here, fair fucking dues to the people on those ships and the people in Israel who have the balls to do the right thing. I can barely even comprehend their bravery and lack of self regard.

I only found out yesterday that a friend's sister is on one of the boats, she and all her colleagues have my absolute respect.

Some time ago I came close to going to Gaza with the ISM to do the "human shield" thing - waving a British passport at the IDF as you walked an old biddy to the hospital or something - but after Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie et al I admit I just bottled it, being an international activist no longer protected you from IDF actions. So for people to put themselves in what was always likely to turn into a firing line like that just staggers me.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Bluff?

well, I could very well be wrong, of course. but I still doubt it. it's one thing to cut diplomatic ties etc. sending in warships would be a whole other order of doing - I don't see the Israelis could be possibly back down from such a challenge & there would be the very real possibility of a shooting war. I don't know if 1) Turkey is willing to do that &/or 2) the U.S./Europe is willing to let it happen. I mean we're talking about nuclear weapons, full stop, in a worst case scenario.

of course, hopefully the Israelis will just end the goddamn blockade before anything like that happens.