Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[crackerjack]

It does seem highly unlikely that peace activists would fire on the Israelis, but is there actually any evidence that they didn't? As far as I can tell it's just one side's word against the other's at this point

Israel have released film showing their commandoes being set upon, and they've claimed a couple of activiists grabbed guns and one may have fired. How that translates into so many dead (at least 10, maybe 19) and what they were doing well outside their own waters is something they're gonna have a hard time explaining.

 

[droid]

There is an IDF video of commandos being physically attacked with some kind of blunt weapons. They have produced no evidence of firearms on the ships or bullet wounds amongst the commandos and the ships were all thoroughly searched by Turkish customs prior to departure. I vaguely know a couple of people on board one of the ships. It seems highly unlikely to me that they were armed with guns or bombs TBH

The Israelis are claiming that their assault troops were 'ambushed', which seems perverse to say the least. The activists and journalists on the scene are saying that the Israelis landed with guns blazing. The IDF video does not show the beginning of the raid. My own opinion based on repeated precedent is that the IDF probably did shoot first, possibly in a struggle, and, commandoes following the initial raid were physically attacked in response. Bear in mind that we've seen repeated examples at Israeli spin in the recent past (many documented in this thread), which places grave doubt on the credibility of any Israeli statement.

All of this misses the essential point anyway. Israel had absolutely no right to board those ships to begin with and (though foolish in the extreme) the activists were perfectly entitled to react with violence to an act of piracy in international waters.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm guessing that the shooting was unplanned. I'm not accrediting the story that the activists shot first, which seems highly unlikely*. a tense situation, an IDF commando with an itchy trigger finger, there you go. the one thing the Israelis are not is stupid, but this was a very, very stupid thing to do - I have a hard time believing that Netanyahu etc aren't cagey enough to be fully aware of that. then again, the decision to carry out the raid in international waters, rather than just detaining the ships off the Gaza coast and getting the same effect minus the PR nightmare, was pretty stupid in and of itself. I have a hard time seeing anything coming of it w/r/t maritime or international law, if only b/c all kinds of countries pull kinds of shady b.s. on the high seas all the time & get away with it, which only points for about the billionth time to the fallacy of "international law". the NATO angle, I dunno, but of all the countries for Israel to piss off, Turkey - which has traditionally been about as friendly to Israel as a Muslim country gets - is a really bad look. I saw some bits about Hezbollah, as well as Syria, making noises about war, which, yeah, I doubt it, esp. given that both have their own problems to deal with. what I can really see this being is a watershed moment for the Palestinians - I don't see how the Israelis are going to be able to avoid lifting the blockade of Gaza, for one.

*the only way I can see this happening would be by a provocateur intending to set off just such an incident. normally I would just discount that, but given how out of character (not in terms of bloodshed, before droid or somebody jumps in, but of what a bad play it is - let's be clear, there's a world of PR difference between killing Palestinians in Gaza & killing Europeans in the middle of the f**king Mediterranean, & the Israelis know that as well as anybody) it is...anyway it's just idle speculation in the absence of any evidence, and it's still pretty implausible. & it still wouldn't excuse the overwhelmingly excessive response of the IDF commandos even if it were true.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

abu m on the matter

But for the sake of argument, and putting ourselves in the shoes of an Israeli naval commander, let's assume the most malevolent of motivations for the people participating in the peace flotilla. If I am in charge of doing that for the Israeli Navy, I am going to assume these people are smart and are deliberately trying to provoke a crazy response from my sailors and soldiers that will produce ready-for-television images that both isolate Israel within the international community and further raise the ire of the Arabic-speaking and Islamic worlds. I mean, that is my base assumption for what this group is trying to do. So naturally, the last thing I would want my forces to do would be to overreact, right?

(emphasis his)

pretty much. stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

also, from the abu m comments section - speculation that it was insubordination on the part of the IDF commandos to derail the peace process (or at least such "peace process" as there currently is). which seems as far-fetched as it being a provocateur, or perhaps even more so but, again, given the sheer f**king craziness...

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the Israelis' video of the boarding & the fighting thereafter (I dunno how to get it to embed - also, it's from the YouTube channel of the IDF's public relations unit, so make of it what you will)

I dunno, the more I read the more it seems like what I originally thought - the initial operation was to board & search, confiscate humanitarian aid (to be then transported into Gaza by the IDF), definitely a show of force but not of lethal force. there's another video on the channel of the pre-mission briefing by some Israeli Navy bigwig wherein dude makes it clear no one's supposed to hurt anyone. the piece I was missing was the, apparently, stunningly bad planning of the operation, which lead to a serious overreaction by the IDF commandos stuck in a bad spot due to said planning. I guess in a sense it doesn't really matter, they're screwed anyway. that video actually reminds me of a couple of the crazier demos I've been to. that's exactly what I'd expect cops to do in a similar situation, except they don't use real bullets, and they're also apparently much better at planning than the IDF. wonder what's going to happen with the inevitable next convoy?

alright, I'm done.

 

[grizzleb]

I reckon someone has knocked that up on the PC. It looks like 'Metal Gear Solid' or something. I don't think that much will come of this, there will be a little bubble for a while, but ultimately Israel will just continue to act as they please. They can always say they are justified, and ignore the criminality of much of it. You get the impression that they (top brass) are all entirely assured in their actions. There's always an indignancy whenever something like this happens and they have to respond...
The US will continue to back them without any real criticism, and possibley vetoing this UN 'statement', because of all the Israeli lobbyists there are.
Yeah, international law and the relevant bodies seems pretty bunk to me in dealing with problems like this, historically. I'm not sure if I remember ever seeing any states do anything as a result of the UN.
That footage that looks like a computer game is well Baudrillardian, however.

 

[luka]

nothing will ever happen to israel whats the point of even discussing it. they do what the fuck they want.

 

[droid]

All the footage from the IDF seems genuine. What's missing is the beginning of the assault, which, according to journalists on the boat involved fire, tear gas and stun grenades launched from the zodiacs.

If this is correct (and it seems likely) the activists were responding to this when the 'elite' commandoes started descending on the ship.

Good points from P though.

 

[scottdisco]

sensible from P and D, as ever.

as P said, if nothing else, surely the collectively punishing blockade must go now. FFS.

four_five_one and i been Twittering to ea other about broad similarities from overly uncritical govt supporters of both BKK and Tel Aviv; a few BKK protestors armed w slingshots etc apparently justifies the massacre of at least 88 Red Shirts, journalists, health workers, etc, and so it seems here - a few (some seemingly improvised) weapons, people defending themselves/naturally attempting to gain upper hand, when heavily armed troops jump aboard, and the fact that some of the people on the affected flotilla ship didn't have the most progressive political views on earth...

 

[vimothy]

Obviously, Israel fucked up badly.

Still a bit bemused by the neocon-esque attitude to international law here, though.

 

[droid]

Some interesting thoughts on legality from Craig Murray:

A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

And as Padraig pointed out, Turkey is the key here. Regardless of this incident, what will the future hold? Turkish ships escorting aid convoys with all that entails? A suspension of all military cooperation between Israel and turkey?

The Iranians must be laughing their heads off. A serious, possibly critical rift between the two nations charged with keeping them under the thumb can only mean an increase in (the already growing) Iranian influence in the region

 

[droid]

Still a bit bemused by the neocon-esque attitude to international law here, though.

Que?

 

[vimothy]

International law is useless (or whatever) because it doesn't prevent these incidents and after the fact no one will be going to prison. You know--the usual.

 

[droid]

Ah. To be fair its just a mirror image of US and Israeli (and many other states) attitudes. The erosion of international law has been a pet project of the US for decades now.

More violence:

An American solidarity activist was shot in the face with a tear gas canister during a demonstration in Qalandiya, today. Emily Henochowicz is currently in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem undergoing surgery to remove her left eye, following the demonstration that was held in protest to Israel's murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in international waters this morning.

21-year old Emily Henochowicz was hit in the face with a tear gas projectile fired directly at her by an Israeli soldier during the demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint today. Israeli occupation forces fired volleys of tear gas at unarmed Palestinian and international protesters, causing mass panic amongst the demonstrators and those queuing at the largest checkpoint separating the West Bank and Israel.

Vid here:

 

[Brother Randy Hickey]

The erosion of international law has been a pet project of the US for decades now.

Indeed, the state of Texas has amended its social studies curriculum for schools to examine the idea that the UN undermines US sovereignty

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_texas_schools_social_studies

 

[vimothy]

Ah. To be fair its just a mirror image of US and Israeli (and many other states) attitudes.

That's what I just said!

 

[vimothy]

Indeed, the state of Texas has amended its social studies curriculum for schools to examine the idea that the UN undermines US sovereignty

This is not a simple issue. I mean, doesn't it?

 

[don_quixote]

there's something i don't understand

how can israeli soldiers have been ambushed if they were on ships without permission in international waters? and why can't commandos deal with 'knives and hatchets'? and, boy... CLUBS!

 

[droid]

there's something i don't understand

how can israeli soldiers have been ambushed if they were on ships without permission in international waters?

I alluded to this earlier. Can you really ambush an ambusher? Its just typical Hasbara. Always the victim, always forced to use violence.

If the IDF ran over a kitten in a tank they'd claim that it was in self defence as the kitten was armed with claws.