Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
no disagreements there.
on other hand I & most of the people I talk to who care about this stuff share a lot of Morris' feelings. if not his inclination to place all the blame on the Arabs (or, rather, a particular strand of the Arabs).
but that general sense of hopelessness, very much so.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
good points
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
well, a couple things. if anyone's interested.
that pressure swings both ways, admittedly. pro-peace sentiment/demonstrations were a notable, if not the main, factor in pressuring Begin into making peace w/Sadat. however I reckon that 1) the settlers & their supporters have a disproportionate amount of influence & that they are stronger in their convictions than those who would oppose them, & 2) general opinion has if anything hardened considerably since the late 70s when Israel was still feeling quite strongly the aftershocks of the October War. I don't know if this will improve either - the Ashkenazim/kibbutzim/war hero elite can't dominate the country forever & as I understand it the Sephardim (as well as the Russians) are on the whole considerably more conservative.
that lack of faith in guarantees is critical. & well justified in my eyes too, given the extremely lackluster record of the UN etc. as a guarantor. there's also the question of who can credibly dealt with on the Palestinian side - that is, what Palestinian leader or group could actually enforce any agreements made on "the Palestinians".
also, a lasting peace (or at least improvement from the status quo) simply will not be imposed by American pressure. we don't have the credibility, the will, the political juice to do it. people forget that Israel/Egypt, for all the mythologizing of Camp David & Carter*, was an Israeli/Egyptian & not an American thing.
on a personal note I have to say I find the phenomenon of Americans & Europeans imposing their bullshit morality on both Israel & the Palestinians from afar to be galling in the extreme. on pragmatic grounds, alright, but whenever the moralizing, or even worse the suggestion of some kind moral authority, is introduced...dude, it makes me want to scream.
*not to undercut his enormous personal contributions & dogged, bordering on insane, determination to put an agreement through
that pressure swings both ways, admittedly. pro-peace sentiment/demonstrations were a notable, if not the main, factor in pressuring Begin into making peace w/Sadat. however I reckon that 1) the settlers & their supporters have a disproportionate amount of influence & that they are stronger in their convictions than those who would oppose them, & 2) general opinion has if anything hardened considerably since the late 70s when Israel was still feeling quite strongly the aftershocks of the October War. I don't know if this will improve either - the Ashkenazim/kibbutzim/war hero elite can't dominate the country forever & as I understand it the Sephardim (as well as the Russians) are on the whole considerably more conservative.
that lack of faith in guarantees is critical. & well justified in my eyes too, given the extremely lackluster record of the UN etc. as a guarantor. there's also the question of who can credibly dealt with on the Palestinian side - that is, what Palestinian leader or group could actually enforce any agreements made on "the Palestinians".
also, a lasting peace (or at least improvement from the status quo) simply will not be imposed by American pressure. we don't have the credibility, the will, the political juice to do it. people forget that Israel/Egypt, for all the mythologizing of Camp David & Carter*, was an Israeli/Egyptian & not an American thing.
on a personal note I have to say I find the phenomenon of Americans & Europeans imposing their bullshit morality on both Israel & the Palestinians from afar to be galling in the extreme. on pragmatic grounds, alright, but whenever the moralizing, or even worse the suggestion of some kind moral authority, is introduced...dude, it makes me want to scream.
*not to undercut his enormous personal contributions & dogged, bordering on insane, determination to put an agreement through
vimothy
yurp
A very important point.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
The thing is, for all their myriad flaws - arrogance chief among them - the Ashkenazim elite are probably preferrable to some of the alternatives. They're secular, for one thing.
either way, you reckon there's probably only one more generation really. I mean Netanyahu was born in '49, just old enough to have served in the War of Attrition (following the 6 Day War) & the October War.
either way, you reckon there's probably only one more generation really. I mean Netanyahu was born in '49, just old enough to have served in the War of Attrition (following the 6 Day War) & the October War.
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
not specifically Israel/Palestine but closely related (via Abu M):
paper on US/Egypt relations, focusing on balancing democracy promotion w/security & stability, etc.
especially interesting in light of Obama's upcoming speech in Cairo.
paper on US/Egypt relations, focusing on balancing democracy promotion w/security & stability, etc.
especially interesting in light of Obama's upcoming speech in Cairo.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
and well I'm here talking to myself, an anecdote on Israel & Israeli identity I recently heard from my mom.
a few years before I was before she & my dad spent a year living in Israel. 79-80 or 80-81, can't remember, either way in that rather upbeat pocket in between the treaty w/Egypt & the invasion of Lebanon. my mom wanted to stay permanently - (ironically it was my dad, who moved back in '88 & has been an Israeli citizen for 20 years, who objected). when she told this to the teacher at her ulpan, he said - "to be an Israeli, you have to believe. it doesn't have to be the same thing - you don't have to believe in Greater Israel, or even in Zionism really. but you have to believe."
not all True Believers like my dad, but believers nonetheless. & not to suggest that the Palestinians aren't believers as well. anwyay if it's not clear Israel, its history, its weltanschauung, etc fascinate me endlessly. the good & the bad.
a few years before I was before she & my dad spent a year living in Israel. 79-80 or 80-81, can't remember, either way in that rather upbeat pocket in between the treaty w/Egypt & the invasion of Lebanon. my mom wanted to stay permanently - (ironically it was my dad, who moved back in '88 & has been an Israeli citizen for 20 years, who objected). when she told this to the teacher at her ulpan, he said - "to be an Israeli, you have to believe. it doesn't have to be the same thing - you don't have to believe in Greater Israel, or even in Zionism really. but you have to believe."
not all True Believers like my dad, but believers nonetheless. & not to suggest that the Palestinians aren't believers as well. anwyay if it's not clear Israel, its history, its weltanschauung, etc fascinate me endlessly. the good & the bad.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
i gotta say Padraig, this thread is what, 25, pages old?
and your contribution is enriching endlessly.. ..chest ya
and your contribution is enriching endlessly.. ..chest ya
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
U.N. human rights investigators enter Gaza
Israel isn't cooperating with them, which is nothing new given their complete lack of faith in the U.N.
Israel isn't cooperating with them, which is nothing new given their complete lack of faith in the U.N.
Obama walks a fine line through the thickets of the middle east.
These are positive signs from the US, where the domestic situation is rearranging, against AIPAC and their Likudnik masters.
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/...2009&base_name=why_is_aipac_so_afraid_of_j_st
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...ine-against-military-action-against-iran.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/08/AR2008050801521.html
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...ech-i-sat-biting-into-a-napkin-trying-to.html
See also: Martin Indyk, former US Ambassador to Israel.
These are positive signs from the US, where the domestic situation is rearranging, against AIPAC and their Likudnik masters.
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/...2009&base_name=why_is_aipac_so_afraid_of_j_st
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...ine-against-military-action-against-iran.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/08/AR2008050801521.html
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...ech-i-sat-biting-into-a-napkin-trying-to.html
See also: Martin Indyk, former US Ambassador to Israel.
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
one thing.
that paper I linked is about exactly this, U.S./Egypt relations - remember that relationship (& the massive amount of U.S. aid) is a direct result of the peace treaty w/Israel.
no offense but I dunno as cherrypicking a few articles from the last year & a half, from exactly the kinds of progressive Jewish sources who are AIPAC's mortal enemies, is evidence of "the domestic situation rearranging". would that it were so, but, unfortunately. also, irrelevant aside - I can't stand f**king Medea Benjamin. the poster-woman for feelgood affluent liberal bullshit (tho tbf you can't knock her personal courage).
also do not underestimate the caginess of the Israelis (infinitely moreso than their lobbyists) & Netanyahu personally.
in other words I'll believe it when I see it.
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that was the implication.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
oh shit I just noticed a mention of an old mate who I'd lost touch with in one of the things Josef linked.
Tristan Anderson - he was shot in the face by an IDF tear gas canister while in Palestine doing solidarity work against the Wall. he might lose an eye - or he might have lost it already, as this happened 2 1/2 months ago. fucking unbelievable. this is just gutting.
here's an actual video of the shooting
*EDIT* it's actually of the aftermath of the shooting - also I should posted a warning (sorry, wasn't thinking straight) - it's pretty graphic
some of the comments are just fucking appalling, even for youtube.
I'm sorry. this is just devastating. we weren't close friends but I knew him pretty well, spent 2 days in jail with him once after a protest in D.C. & I'd always see him around town when I lived in Oakland. he's an ultra-dedicated, lifelong anarchist, hell of a nice guy too. he always used to have all these mad stories from Europe & Turkey & all these other places.
christ this is terrible.
Tristan Anderson - he was shot in the face by an IDF tear gas canister while in Palestine doing solidarity work against the Wall. he might lose an eye - or he might have lost it already, as this happened 2 1/2 months ago. fucking unbelievable. this is just gutting.
here's an actual video of the shooting
*EDIT* it's actually of the aftermath of the shooting - also I should posted a warning (sorry, wasn't thinking straight) - it's pretty graphic
some of the comments are just fucking appalling, even for youtube.
I'm sorry. this is just devastating. we weren't close friends but I knew him pretty well, spent 2 days in jail with him once after a protest in D.C. & I'd always see him around town when I lived in Oakland. he's an ultra-dedicated, lifelong anarchist, hell of a nice guy too. he always used to have all these mad stories from Europe & Turkey & all these other places.
christ this is terrible.
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D
droid
Guest
How so? Was it because of that resolution which gave them a state or the fact that they make the odd meek protest everytime Israel deliberately attacks its facilities and kills its employees?
D
droid
Guest
Shit man. My sympathies. I've nothing but admiration for those people.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Padraig - so sorry to read this. Echo what Droid says.