luka

Well-known member
rockist- the album as Major Artistic Statement. Performer as auteur. Writes and performs own material. Authentic. Passionate. Possibly tortured. Mojo magazine. Neil Young. Bruce Springsteen. Brian Wilson. Lennon and McCartney. Bob Dylan.
Castigates pop for its division between writer and performer ("she doesn't even write her own songs") plastic. Market driven. Populist. Disposable. Factory assembly line not artisanal.

Poptimist- in a nutshell says, pop rules. Reverses those valuations while critiquing and debunking some pf rocks own mythos eg questioning the notion of the authentic. Foregrounds fun and ephemeral enjoyment. Creates in doing so a canon which is much more inclusive than rocks pantheon of white males.


In a nutshell.
 

luka

Well-known member
Thanks crowl! I love music was poptimist ground zero. One of their collective catchphrases/rallying cries was "do you hate fun?" It operated in the same way as the contemporaneous notion of "haters" a way to shut down critique and aid the imposition of a new set of values.
 

luka

Well-known member
As always babies get thrown out with bathwater but it starts out as a righteous crusade. Essentially you look at the boomer canon (best albums ever made; sgt pepper. Revolver. Pet sounds. Harvest. Blood on the tracks. Astral weeks. What's going on as a nod to the existence of black music) and say, correctly, this leaves out everything good, exemplified by but not limited to chaka khans ain't nobody.

So you look at the underlying assumptions that lead to the creation of such a boring canon, the valuations, and you go to work upending them and reversing them (and for good measure insinuate, probably with some justification, racism, sexism, social snobbery)
 

luka

Well-known member
One of the things poptimism wasn't terribly well equipped to assess was underground music. This is one area where I think there is a problem. It's a small step from poptimist to corporate shill, or panglossian capitalist.

The thread 'I love music lol' will give you some sense of how this played out.

This is why I ask our Marxists to apply the dialectic because we are always asking "what is being left out?" The rockist position left out huge swathes of music, particularly genres based around the 12inch or 7inch. For instance Disco and it's various lineages.

So we are in the position, at this point in the timeline, of having to ask, what does poptimism exclude? What is it not equipped to assess, conceptualise, critique?

It should be fairly obvious why I want to have this conversation in the culture as advertising thread.
 
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luka

Well-known member
Of course it helps that this battle was being fought at a pretty fantastic time for pop with missy eliot and timbaland in the charts. It also, not coincidentally, happens at the same time as the hiphop mainstream drops any 'underground' rhetoric, as examined in our 'hip-hop culture wars' thread. This backdrop lends great weight to the poptimist position.
 
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CrowleyHead

Well-known member
OK so rockism is actually partially what it's popular perception goes under, but in reality it's all about group dynamics, live connected interplay. It's v. close to Pattycakes tastes in my perception (not to bash him but to illustrate). Its not about how LPs are superior to Singles but rather how LPs serve as documents while singles are 'choice cuts for the general audience'. The idea is a lot of Real instruments of course, but in reality the idea is that the 'jazz combo' dynamic is the ideal for music. That realm of improvisation within the tune. Grime is Classically Rockist because it's not supposed to be about the single, it's about the constant reapplication of the verses as versions or the pirate sessions and the interplay with other MCs, DJs, instrumentals etc. For some reason, people reinterpreted it as the desire for the Authentic Recording group or whatever which completely misses the point of it (a definite consequence of ILX running rampant for sure).

Likewise, poptimism isn't about the idea that Pop with a capital P is inherently superior but the idea that the things that have come into the commercial sphere must be valued with as much if not more critical regard than the 'idealized and purified' forms of music. This would tie into the post blissblogger did on the inadvertent future threat where Janelle Monae is actually hitting all the musical standards of the past with her constant citations and references, but Migos feel otherly in their 'nowness' (an argument I'm ambivalent to in that example b/c my thoughts on Culture II and Janelle Monae are less than positive mutually, but one I can appreciate).

But so in the classic definition of rockist, Prince for example is not able to "Rock". For one, everything he does is with himself, so he cannot gain any chemistry because it's all masturbatory for the most part. Likewise he, like Monae, is always constantly simulating authentic feel while he feels more at home in his most artificial and otherly, like Migos in this case I guess. You can see this in his later day singles where he's constantly appealing to these Hendrix or U2 flirtations in order to show his command and mastery of the real music long forgotten by the masses.... ridiculous. His best single from the last decade or so of his life is "Black Sweat", a mechanized squeal of a record that puts modern gloss on G-Funk (in other words, Prince quite literally predicted the rise of Bruno Mars as an R&B Auteur a few years early. Though it's a shame that Mars is so eager to constantly drape himself in retro tropes rather than fleck the past into modernity).

The Pop is The Best, Pop Stars are Our Hero mentality is something I'd distinguish for now as 'popcult', and it's somehow supplanting Poptimism is def. the demon of ilx who as we know from Luka's harvesting, were often full of people who didn't bother to really meditate on the labels they wanted to pony around. It's become an increasing flaw because rather than pay attention to the diversity of Pop and think about the flukish things that become pop hits (the way early poptimists look at So Solid Crew or what have you briefly becoming pop stars), they're into an Orthodox Idea of Pop. Pet Shop Boys. Britney Spears. Robyn. Tegan & Sara. Now CRJ. What's telling however is that they'll disregard and ignore those who are in the commercial sphere attempting things or the diversity of what's going on for this increasingly strychnine view of Pop. The entire notion of Poptimism as a chance to liberate music taste has gone fully backwards and instead becomes this rigid screed as to what executes the Ideals of What We Know To Be Good Pop the best. It's bizarre because the logic is next to nil because Carly Rae Jepsen is, as a pop star, essentially at a larger indie rock musician level of fame At Best but is upheld as a higher and more aggressive standard than say, Ariana Grande who is much more recognizable at large by the casual music audience (and arguably larger stars like Justin Bieber are outright disregarded at times).
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
This is the conundrum. Think of all the UK music that should've been covered by poptimists if they acted like the first generation of poptimists such as Tom Ewing and the like; UK Drill would've been on their radar. The J-Huses, infinitely so. Yet you ask who they know and if it's more urban than Skepta and Stormzy (who in that case is literally a 15 year career professional and a Revivalist of a long dead style) they're not taking it seriously. There's been a major lack of desire to update in Poptimism and it's made the whole thing languish... What was meant to be democratic and potentially expand dialog has somehow (let's be honest, by the dictation of the industry and the media recognizing they can harness 'fannish enthusiasm' to power the fact that they want to reduce criticism to allow for PR) is instead going up it's own ass.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
people get confused by the "rock" bit in "rockism" - understandably and forgiveably so

it's a mode of argument based on assumptions to do with artistic worth, durability, seriousness, authenticity, significance

the arguments that people routinely make in favour of e.g. Beyonce are completely rockist - for all intents and purposes, they might as well be writing about Springsteen, the way that rockcritics wrote about Bruce in the Eighties. Or Patti Smith.

equally the arguments people make in favour of hip hop, underground dance music, are rockist as well - usually based on ideas of the street, the underground, innovation, rebellion or anti-hegemonic truth etc

nearly all of stuff written about in the Wire is celebrated in values that are congruent with rockism - varying ideas to do with the cutting edge, spiritual adventurism, expressive intensity, the shock aeshetic - although they often have their own discrete genealogies of ideas / attitudes coming out of pre-rock discourses like jazz or the avant-garde. but most of the people at Wire would have come up through rock press during postpunk or Nineties so some of it comes from rockism.

so there are different branches and modalities of "rockism", and at core, none of them really have to do with distorted electric guitars, raw raspy vocals, etc, ie. the most obvious surface signifiers of "rawk"

the true pure "poptimist" viewpoint is to junk all of those value schemes (both the seriousness/worth/lyrical profundity/ craftmanship/raw honesty ideas that apply to Neil young or nirvana, AND the innovation, futurism, challenge, darkness, danger set of ideas, AND the street cred set of ideas)

the true pure poptimist celebrates the manufactured, the plastic, the shallow, the surface pleasure, the glossy overtly synthetic, the disposable... they celebrate the commodified product nature of pop, they favor the specialist division of labour (separation of songwriter / performer / producer, now taken to post-Fordist containerized globalised extremes with different components of a song being made in different studios around the world, teams of song-doctors, producers, engineers, remixers who collaborate without ever meeting)

the true pure poptimist rejects the idea of virtue or significance in any form - all that matters is the consumer's pleasure - the intent of the artist or the context of production (exploitative or whatever) is irrelevant -

in practice though
(and infuriatingly)
your poptimists will do that kind of "shallow/empty is good" transvaluation move when it's required strategically to celebrate-defend something

but will happily revert to the boring earnest 'substance' oriented arguments to defend-celebrate an artist (e.g. Beyonce but many other examples - Janelle 'Tedium Incarnate' Monae is a good example) if it's applicable... even celebrating the didactic, message-oriented stuff done by the woke-r kinds of these artist (Beyonce with Formation, Lemonade etc) that normally they would deride as boring and rockist if done by a rock artist or Wire type conceptronica artist.

they will do the pure-poptimist rhetoric with really plasticky stuff (K-pop) and then shift to crypto-rockist stodge-thinking for other major pop artists in R&B, where they will emphasise the authorial intent, the fact that she (usually a she) does actually write their own songs
 
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blissblogger

Well-known member
and just to be clear, i would align myself with the historical project known as "rockism"

flaws, problematic elements, and major deaf spots aside, it seems the grander and more interesting way of thinking about and feeling music /culture

it's not to deny that the pop method produces great entertainments - and even things you could think of as art

but the stuff that really nourishes and inflames can only really be understood within the frame slurred as rockism

my idea of "rockism" comprehends jungle, hip hop, dub reggae, uk drill, whatever (and historically Joni's Hissing, Tim Buckley Starsailor, things that aren't 'rock' in the conventional sense)

at this point in history, it almost never includes a contemporary group that uses electric guitars. like, once in a blue moon maybe

this new improved rockism would be a self-correcting and restlessly mobile ideology that never settles into venerating a particular sonic form as substance (like distorted electric guitars, raw raspy vocals, or songs-torn-from-the-heart, or for that matter, grime-as-genre-still-plodding-inexplicably-on)

a better word is needed really, something that takes the 'rock' out of 'rockism'
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm not sure, personally, that that is how the game works. I think the rockists were trounced. I don't think you can carry on under that banner as if nothing has happened. I think in that situation you assimilate the poptimist critique and create a new position. Otherwise time doesn't move forward. Groundhog Day.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
The thing that annoys me about rockism is its very nomadism. granted poptimism has exactly the same problem.

Like, not that I want to defend 2010s dnb, or grime, or heaven forbid, dubstep, but you can't just exchange narritive identities for new clothes. it just doesn't work like that. What I had to do personally is leave the clubbing scene entirely. A lot of the big boys who castigate squarepusher (not you blissblogger) do exactly the same thing they accuse him of. not remaining dedicated to a scene when its surface level signifiers are exhausted. they are not interested in going into its deeper arts core. like there was ragga dnb, rnb dnb all through the 00s, and granted I thought most of it was fucking awful with that zomby pavlovian beat drop, but like, people moaning about how dnb had lost all of its black music influences, it just felt a bit like cultural tourism, like they were beholden to pop market trends more than anything.

like:


I can tell you why it's shit but not many can.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I'm not against nomadism in fact I'm actually far more for nomadism than stasis. but under our current conditions of production it can turn very bill laswell can't it? Like I couldn't imagine nearly all of the wire contributors making any significant music.

There's being a bill laswell in form, and then there's using his conceptual tools. Both have to be avoided imo.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Which then again brings me back to my question. do most people actually have time for music? I would say no.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
and just to be clear, i would align myself with the historical project known as "rockism"

flaws, problematic elements, and major deaf spots aside, it seems the grander and more interesting way of thinking about and feeling music /culture

it's not to deny that the pop method produces great entertainments - and even things you could think of as art

but the stuff that really nourishes and inflames can only really be understood within the frame slurred as rockism

my idea of "rockism" comprehends jungle, hip hop, dub reggae, uk drill, whatever (and historically Joni's Hissing, Tim Buckley Starsailor, things that aren't 'rock' in the conventional sense)

at this point in history, it almost never includes a contemporary group that uses electric guitars. like, once in a blue moon maybe

this new improved rockism would be a self-correcting and restlessly mobile ideology that never settles into venerating a particular sonic form as substance (like distorted electric guitars, raw raspy vocals, or songs-torn-from-the-heart, or for that matter, grime-as-genre-still-plodding-inexplicably-on)

a better word is needed really, something that takes the 'rock' out of 'rockism'

I thought of funkism about 20 minutes ago when I was sitting on the bog taking a dump and cracked up because that would sound even worse.
 

kumar

Well-known member
somewhat broadly then a lot of rockist values can be traced back to an idea of “Art” , which we could say was invented as a distinct category, to confer specific value on particular activities like say painting, by aristocratic elites in the 18th century, faced with the prospect of having their power usurped by newly monied industrialists. a blatantly reactionary act of shameless self promotion if ever i saw one.

assumptions to do with “durability, seriousness, authenticity, significance” are the branding objectives of the class of people for whom absolute power was a hereditary right, and even if a rockist approach inverts the codes to venerate “the street” or “the improv group” etc i don't know if it can shake its undeniably rotten core of pre enlightenment toff thought.

so i reckon a new improved version would have to be defined beyond "Art". i mean music, like painting predates "Art", and capitalism… music is the best ...
 

other_life

bioconfused
maybe the dichotomy between 'rockism' and 'poptimism' is tired and we shouldn't let partisans of either set the terms of the conversation
 

other_life

bioconfused
there's so much else about popular music to explore. really like simon's point that 'poptimists' resort to 'rockist' arguments when it's convenient for them though like holy fuck the push for beyonce's self titled and lemonade
 

luka

Well-known member
somewhat broadly then a lot of rockist values can be traced back to an idea of “Art” , which we could say was invented as a distinct category, to confer specific value on particular activities like say painting, by aristocratic elites in the 18th century, faced with the prospect of having their power usurped by newly monied industrialists. a blatantly reactionary act of shameless self promotion if ever i saw one.

assumptions to do with “durability, seriousness, authenticity, significance” are the branding objectives of the class of people for whom absolute power was a hereditary right, and even if a rockist approach inverts the codes to venerate “the street” or “the improv group” etc i don't know if it can shake its undeniably rotten core of pre enlightenment toff thought.

so i reckon a new improved version would have to be defined beyond "Art". i mean music, like painting predates "Art", and capitalism… music is the best ...

Great post. Pivot point to conversation. Follow this new trajectory pls
 
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