Cancellations

[version]

I think sufi has a point re: how distorted the perception of this stuff is. When it's discussed, it's discussed as a "culture" rather than in terms of specific examples and at least some of us are working off what we're presented with in the media which isn't exactly accurate.

 

[linebaugh]

It's a thing for real - it's the only argument against CC people are exercising here
I am contending that accountability is generally broken at the upper echelons of our societies and CC is as good as we've got to redress the balance right now

Im more inclined to hear out an argument that says cancel culture, its negatives included, is the best accountability tool we have access to in the current state of things. That we cant hold the elite accountable without also cannibalizing our selves a little too. But Im still not all that convinced cancel culture holds the elite accountable and the cannibalization is disproportionate

 

[linebaugh]

Republicans dont get cancelled, they are immune to it

 

[linebaugh]

If cancel culture was effective Donald Trump isnt president

 

[version]

It seems like an atmosphere more than anything. It's hard to think of specific examples, but you're made to feel it's everywhere. It's comedians saying "you can't say anything anymore" whilst still doing shows and podcasts.

 

[sufi]

Im more inclined to hear out an argument that says cancel culture, its negatives included, is the best accountability tool we have access to in the current state of things. That we cant hold the elite accountable without also cannibalizing our selves a little too. But Im still not all that convinced cancel culture holds the elite accountable and the cannibalization is disproportionate

That's precisely my point

Republicans dont get cancelled, they are immune to it

same with the tories here in uk at the moment.
that's why we need to further refine our techniques

 

[Leo]

I guess redemption is a quaint notion.

 

[sufi]

same with the tories here in uk at the moment.
that's why we need to further refine our techniques

there's a particular connection to populism, but it must cut both ways

 

[linebaugh]

Yah what makes this conversation hard is that the most vocal dissidents of cancel culture tend to be the most insufferable people on the planet

 

[version]

I believe it exists and people have been cancelled, but it's hard to gauge the extent of it and keep track of who's come back, who's disappeared, what the process is for someone who manages to bounce back and so on.

 

[sufi]

Yah what makes this conversation hard is that the most vocal dissidents of cancel culture tend to be the most insufferable people on the planet

Yep, there's a reason for that i think

 

[luka]

anyone with strong opinions on politics is insufferable.

 

[sufi]

Look at your man Brett Kavanaugh
Accused of rape, many years ago, it would not have been prosecutable, but the court of public opinion gave him a thorough kicking, he still got the job, which would not have been my verdict, but i think the truth got out

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

If cancel culture is to mean the negative flip side of accountability.

more like cancel culture is the negative - or warped - version of accountability

complex and difficult situations like this are where I think it's really important, and helpful to have clear foundational principles

freedom and responsibility for me are twinned in the classic anarchist sense

I always believe in the capacity of individuals to think for themselves, and I'm against authoritarianism (almost) regardless of expediency

I'm - in an ideological sense - against declaring "enemies of the people", breaking eggs to make omelettes, etc. history bears out where they lead.

I do accept that our - anyone's - perception of "cancel culture" is distorted by institutional view inherently hostile to from-below actions

 

[sufi]

Yep, there's a reason for that i think

& that's also why it's not a politically neutral issue, and that's why you should support it Padraig

 

[sufi]

& that's also why it's not a politically neutral issue, and that's why you should support it Padraig

to be clear (for Mr Tea) because it can rain on the powerful just as it can rain on the powerless, the powerful are much much more worried about CC, it's an equaliser, and as such is not politicallly neutral

 

[linebaugh]

I'm just not inclined to believe cancel culture is all that effective until powerful conservatives, i.e. the ruling ideologues in America, are touched by it.

Maybe I have a different idea of cancel culture than others though. I don't really consider #metoo completely over lapping with it. If you are, its no doubt cancel culture has done good for women out there and consent is rightfully present in the minds of all men. But I dont think calling out a sexual assault is 'cancel culture.'

And sure we are less likely to have public figures saying some racist shit, but that's not really how racism primarily manifests itself anymore, even before 'cancel culture.' Racism is covert

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Republicans dont get cancelled, they are immune to it

we went over this awhile ago before you arrived, it's buried somewhere in the thread

there was disagreement but I and some other people believe there are a couple reasons there

1) "cancellation" doesn't work as well on elected officials, bestowed as they are with an official (even when dubious) legitimacy

resistance to from-below action (or mob rule, depending on POV) is an inherent part of checks and balances

2) the person being cancelled , and more importantly their supporters/audience, has to care about what they're being cancelled for

the Overton window is big here

more like, an individual's Overton window within the many overlapping Overton windows which make up public discourse

 

[version]

I think it's ultimately better if someone can be rehabilitated rather than punished indefinitely. Obviously if you've dismembered and eaten a family of four or something then you're done, but I think you have to believe that most people can change otherwise the whole enterprise is pointless. You have to believe this stuff will make people reconsider their position and change for the better, or you have to come up with another way.

 

[sufi]

I'm just not inclined to believe cancel culture is all that effective until powerful conservatives, i.e. the ruling ideologues in America, are touched by it.

Maybe I have a different idea of cancel culture than others though. I don't really consider #metoo completely over lapping with it. If you are, its no doubt cancel culture has done good for women out there and consent is rightfully present in the minds of all men. But I dont think calling out a sexual assault is 'cancel culture.'

And sure we are less likely to have public figures saying some racist shit out, but that's not really how racism primarily manifests itself anymore, even before 'cancel culture.' Racism is covert

i counted metoo in this from the start, it's about hypocrisy and bullying

we went over this awhile ago before you arrived, it's buried somewhere in the thread

there was disagreement but I and some other people believe there are a couple reasons there

1) "cancellation" doesn't work as well on elected officials, bestowed as they are with an official (even when dubious) legitimacy

resistance to from-below action (or mob rule, depending on POV) is an inherent part of checks and balances

2) the person being cancelled , and more importantly their supporters/audience, has to care about what they're being cancelled for

the Overton window is big here

(Kavanaugh)
I think that if you are discounting the power of cancelation because it hasnt toppled the most powerful and influential and crooked bullies on the entire fucking planet yet then, well ...