Euthanasia
- Thread starter Woebot
- Start date
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
absolutely, let it be done by qualified professionals
just like abortion
people won't stop doing it because it's illegal, they'll simply turn to less qualified, and possibly unsavory, sources of help
what you're doing is ensuring is that more people will either suffer because they can't get help, or suffer because that help is unqualified and botches the job
vimothy
yurp
and how do you balance these concerns? at what point would you say it's too risky, or that the system is being abused?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
You could help me out by explaining exactly what you find "dystopian" about the concept of legalized euthanasia, rather than just saying "well it's jolly dystopian, don't you think".
vimothy
yurp
you dont think it's more likely if it is state sanctioned?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Dignitas has been running for a few decades now. As far as I know, there haven't been any cases of people being tricked or bullied into assisted suicide under the auspices of the organisation. So it sounds like Swiss law has probably got it about right. I don't think it's the impossibly knotty ethical and legal problem you think it is.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
obviously. that's what you seek to minimize with regulation.
there is no perfect answer to the issue. everything is a trade-off.
these aren't exactly insurmountable concerns you're bringing up.
vimothy
yurp
the fact that you think this is a straightforward issue is symptomatic, imv
vimothy
yurp
so the fact that you can add "oversight" of something that was going to happen anyway via state management isnt really that impressive, if you're causing it to occur
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that's not what we're talking about, that's what you're talking about
I'm talking about the rights of individuals to choose their deaths, and not criminalizing the people who help them fulfill those wishes
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
speaking personally - my grandmother was very old and very sick. there was no cure. her body was falling apart from old age.
she repeatedly and vocally expressed a wish for her life to be over.
she didn't live in a state that has legal assisted suicide.
she asked a relative who works in medicine to help her. he, understandably, wasn't willing to risk the loss of of his job, license and ability to practice, not to mention potential criminal charges, with a family of his own to support.
the rest of was were stuck arguing about what to do - I was for honoring her wishes - and how the hell to humanely and effectively go about it.
it dragged on forever. it was horrible. she started refusing to eat. her daughter were at wits end. finally, blessedly, she died.
if she could have gone to a willing, qualified professional for help it would have saved her a lot of suffering
she repeatedly and vocally expressed a wish for her life to be over.
she didn't live in a state that has legal assisted suicide.
she asked a relative who works in medicine to help her. he, understandably, wasn't willing to risk the loss of of his job, license and ability to practice, not to mention potential criminal charges, with a family of his own to support.
the rest of was were stuck arguing about what to do - I was for honoring her wishes - and how the hell to humanely and effectively go about it.
it dragged on forever. it was horrible. she started refusing to eat. her daughter were at wits end. finally, blessedly, she died.
if she could have gone to a willing, qualified professional for help it would have saved her a lot of suffering
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
so @vimothy I'd think your abstract dystopian concerns were overblown even w/o that personal experience
but having had it makes me quite certain
I'm not fishing for sympathy btw, she had a full life, she was very old, and she died.
but it would've been great to be able to humanely ease her suffering. she was denied the right to die in a way she wanted to.
there's plenty of evidence that it can be accomplished within a legal framework without death boards for old people etc
but having had it makes me quite certain
I'm not fishing for sympathy btw, she had a full life, she was very old, and she died.
but it would've been great to be able to humanely ease her suffering. she was denied the right to die in a way she wanted to.
there's plenty of evidence that it can be accomplished within a legal framework without death boards for old people etc
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sus
Moderator
I totally believe this but I'll also say that, this can be perfectly true of a small team of passionate, ethically concerned doctors who started the center, and are trying to model it to the world, etc—and also not at all reflect the institutional realities that set in once you scale up, once they're not all these great exceptional self-selected people devoted to ethical assisted suicide but stressed-out doctors and bureaucrats in an imperfect, overloaded system.
sus
Moderator
IMO Sarah Perry, who wrote on antinatalism for a while, is one of the best people on this topic.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Of what? That I want it to be easy for wicked governments to dispose of people, or something?
I don't think I ever said it was "straightforward". I said it appears to be possible.
Again, if you can find an example to support your argument, I'm all ears.
WashYourHands
Cat Malogen
My brother works with people who have locked in syndrome. A bunch of his clients have been in major accidents leading to near complete paralysis. One in particular stands out, sometimes people have to decompress after shifts and talk through the horrors, but I couldn’t believe what I was listening to.
Female, late teens, hit by drunk driver after being sent out by her family restaurant to buy something. Drunk driver bolts. Car behind drunk driver was a group of orthopaedic specialists just finished a shift. One in a ten thousand chance. They keep her alive at the scene, but she ends up paralysed having to use eye scanning equipment with a screen to relay sentences via a comp, all day, every day.
My brother calls in to see about an beefing up her audio/music playlists and hardware and she eye scans out the sentence about ending it, but the only way possible was to bite her tongue off and hope to bleed out. She’s done her research, except she can’t bite and gets peg fed. His first responsibility is his patient’s wellbeing, do no harm. So he got digging trying to expand the music she was listening to while talking to her psychologist. Then she starts bringing up Dignitas every session, except he’s legally bound not to initiate the subject or continue it without her parents being present.
What’s the right thing to do? Give her time for the science of spinal chord injuries to reach a eureka? She’s been in this state for a few years. There’s no miracle pending. Spinal injuries are what they are, currently. Deny her the right to die with dignity?
I still have no fuckin idea.
Female, late teens, hit by drunk driver after being sent out by her family restaurant to buy something. Drunk driver bolts. Car behind drunk driver was a group of orthopaedic specialists just finished a shift. One in a ten thousand chance. They keep her alive at the scene, but she ends up paralysed having to use eye scanning equipment with a screen to relay sentences via a comp, all day, every day.
My brother calls in to see about an beefing up her audio/music playlists and hardware and she eye scans out the sentence about ending it, but the only way possible was to bite her tongue off and hope to bleed out. She’s done her research, except she can’t bite and gets peg fed. His first responsibility is his patient’s wellbeing, do no harm. So he got digging trying to expand the music she was listening to while talking to her psychologist. Then she starts bringing up Dignitas every session, except he’s legally bound not to initiate the subject or continue it without her parents being present.
What’s the right thing to do? Give her time for the science of spinal chord injuries to reach a eureka? She’s been in this state for a few years. There’s no miracle pending. Spinal injuries are what they are, currently. Deny her the right to die with dignity?
I still have no fuckin idea.
sus
Moderator
I get why the laws exist that bind your brother and put him in a condescending position—to not even be able to give her the dignity/autonomy of being able to talk about it, to in some sense treat her like a child (lack of self-determination), on account of possible legal repercussions—losing everything in a lawsuit, losing your jobs, etc. But man, it's dehumanizing and awful.
sus
Moderator
Is there any way to initiate the dialogue with her parents? I guess the sad part is that many parents are unable to be honest enough, or selfless enough, to have that conversation seriously, and set aside their own sense of grief and denial etc about losing their daughter, and to actually find what's best for her together. I like to think my parents would respect my wishes that way; I think they would, but I also think I am very lucky to have the parents I have.