Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[chava]

yes, clearly the reason that there aren't more Arab democracies is that their citizens aren't trying hard enough

definitely not the endless string of (usually foreign-backed) brutal repression, military coups, foreign military interventions, proxy civil wars, etc

I'm sure if Syrians, Egyptians, Bahrains, etc just tried harder they could will democracy into existence

really galling statement

they have kids because of their religious beliefs, not some tradbro fixation on birth rates

please learn a single thing about Jewish people before you continue talking about them. like a single thing.

Yes of course you have kids beacuse of religious beliefs, nobody has kids because of birth rates other than that autistic couple that's touring twitter media atm

 

[chava]

Why don't other countries in the area help them? I'd be going Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon for a start.

Let's see how many countries (other than Jordan and Lebanon, maybe Syria) who would take refugees if Israel goes ballistic. Obviously palestinians could have left their land and get assimilated in those countries several decades ago, if those countries would let them. But of course those countries didn't.

 

[chava]

In fact something you don't hear discussed much is the widespread prejudice and discrimination against Palestinians in the Middle East outside Israel - in the other, predominantly Arab and Muslim, countries.

Maybe we should start with this problem

 

[maxi]

"Only functioning democracy" sounds a lot like only white people can handle democracy unlike those stinky Arabs.

not to nitpick but as an aside I wouldn't really describe Israelis as 'white'. firstly cos over half the jewish population are mizrahi i.e. middle eastern heritage. yemenite, iraqi, iranian jews etc.

but also even with ashkenazi jews.. I get it in certain contexts, obviously there's white skin and the associated privileges, but as basically the most hated group in the world by white nationalists, being jewish isn't really synonymous with 'white'.

agree with your wider point about arabs being thought of as unfit/unready for democracy compared to westerners (which includes Israel) in general though.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Wonder what the mainstream consensus would be if Ukraine did something similar to the Russians. You'd assume the response would be very different.

Hard to imagine that they would, though, as while Ukraine has extremists, they're small in number and largely irrelevant - unlike in Israel, where they're basically dominating the Knesset at the moment, and Gaza, where they run the whole place.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Maybe we should start with this problem

Lol, nice try.

 

[chava]

yes, clearly the reason that there aren't more Arab democracies is that their citizens aren't trying hard enough

definitely not the endless string of (usually foreign-backed) brutal repression, military coups, foreign military interventions, proxy civil wars, etc

I'm sure if Syrians, Egyptians, Bahrains, etc just tried harder they could will democracy into existence

really galling statement

Democracy doesn't just come falling out of the sky if you are crying or demonstrating for it or even fighting for it even allowed by surrounding states. I think recent history has shown us this pretty clearly.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Why don't other countries in the area help them? I'd be going Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon for a start.

As of March 2023, the total number of UNRWA registered Palestine Refugees in Lebanon is 489,292 persons

Lebanon | UNRWA

As of March 2023, the total number of UNRWA registered Palestine Refugees in Lebanon is 489,292 persons.

www.unrwa.org

That's nearly ten percent of the total population. Imagine six million refugees from one specific country living in the UK.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Why don't other countries in the area help them? I'd be going Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon for a start.

oh boy. since this seems like a genuine question, I'll answer it.

first off the answer is, they do. all of the major refugee camps outside Gaza/WB are in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. as tea said, they make up 10% of the population of Lebanon. They're more than 1/6 the population of Jordan.

they're also worried about their domestic situations. Jordan literally fought a short war - Black September in 1970 - to prevent Palestinian militants from taking over Jordan and expelled them to Lebanon. that in turn was a major cause of the disastrous 1975-90 civil war in Lebanon. during that civil war, Israel invaded in 1982, expelling the PLO from Lebanon (as well as directly causing the formation of Hezballah, and getting the IDF stuck in a frutiless 15-year occupation of Lebanon).

Palestinians are, unfortunately, more useful to other govts as a symbol than as potentially destabilizing residents

the historical treatment of Palestinians by Arab govts is shameful and at the same time doesn't justify any of the bad things Israel's has done

 

[linebaugh]

He even bumped it. To make sure that everyone on the board was talking about a topic so divisive it may as well have been engineered in a lab to rip apart communities of friends

Unlike the sanguine topic of AI kiddie porn

 

[Mr. Tea]

not to nitpick but as an aside I wouldn't really describe Israelis as 'white'. firstly cos over half the jewish population are mizrahi i.e. middle eastern heritage. yemenite, iraqi, iranian jews etc.

but also even with ashkenazi jews.. I get it in certain contexts, obviously there's white skin and the associated privileges, but as basically the most hated group in the world by white nationalists, being jewish isn't really synonymous with 'white'.

agree with your wider point about arabs being thought of as unfit/unready for democracy compared to westerners (which includes Israel) in general though.

Huge can of worms here, and it's probably not wise to get bogged down in debates about who counts as "white" and who doesn't - not least because it's a totally unscientific term, and by using it as a category you're basically arguing on racists' terms, even if you're doing so from an anti-racist perspective. And theres an unfortunate strain of notionally 'anti-racist' discourse that considers Jews not just as white, but as the epitome of whiteness (looking at you, Jackie Walker).

And of course there is prejudice and discrimination against darker-skinned people in Israel, as there is in most countries, even within the Jewish population.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I read something earlier about the head of Shin Bet raising concerns about settler attacks on Palestinians increasing the security threat to Israel and members of Likud attacking him and claiming "the ideology of the left" and "the deep state" had infiltrated the top levels of Shin Bet and the IDF...

that sounds like imported Trumpism, which isn't surprising

I meant the homegrown variety. the settler fanatics, ultranationalists, Haredi parties (without which no Likud govt ever would've been able to take power), etc. there is a particular kind of craziness from the blend of ultranationalism and religious fanaticism that you only get in the U.S. with like Christian Identity white supremacists, but in Israel it's a significant % of population. certainly the siege mentality is a huge factor, tho unlike the delusions of racists who imagine white people under siege in the U.S. and Europe, in this case there's something to it.

 

[DLaurent]

oh boy. since this seems like a genuine question, I'll answer it.

first off the answer is, they do. all of the major refugee camps outside Gaza/WB are in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. as tea said, they make up 10% of the population of Lebanon. They're more than 1/6 the population of Jordan.

they're also worried about their domestic situations. Jordan literally fought a short war - Black September in 1970 - to prevent Palestinian militants from taking over Jordan and expelled them to Lebanon. that in turn was a major cause of the disastrous 1975-90 civil war in Lebanon. during that civil war, Israel invaded in 1982, expelling the PLO from Lebanon (as well as directly causing the formation of Hezballah, and getting the IDF stuck in a frutiless 15-year occupation of Lebanon).

Palestinians are, unfortunately, more useful to other govts as a symbol than as potentially destabilizing residents

the historical treatment of Palestinians by Arab govts is shameful and at the same time doesn't justify any of the bad things Israel's has done

It was a genuine question so thanks for the answer. There's more to it than I thought.

 

[version]

Why don't other countries in the area help them? I'd be going Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon for a start.

'Egypt warns against pushing civilian Palestinians towards Egyptian borders: Al-Qahera News'

 

[version]

The Wall Street Journal are claiming Iran were involved in planning the attacks, but Israeli military have since come out and said there's no evidence yet of Iranian involvement.

 

[DannyL]

Lebanon is a democracy that shares a land border with Israel

not a perfect one certainly but literally a functioning democracy

not to nitpick but as an aside I wouldn't really describe Israelis as 'white'. firstly cos over half the jewish population are mizrahi i.e. middle eastern heritage. yemenite, iraqi, iranian jews etc.

but also even with ashkenazi jews.. I get it in certain contexts, obviously there's white skin and the associated privileges, but as basically the most hated group in the world by white nationalists, being jewish isn't really synonymous with 'white'.

agree with your wider point about arabs being thought of as unfit/unready for democracy compared to westerners (which includes Israel) in general though.

That did occur to me, believe it or not. But I think the point stands. Israel - aligned to the West/white coded vs. the Arab "other". Vastly more complex in reality of course.

 

[DannyL]

Democracy doesn't just come falling out of the sky if you are crying or demonstrating for it or even fighting for it even allowed by surrounding states. I think recent history has shown us this pretty clearly.

You presenting Israel as the "only functioning democracy" in the region completely occludes the history of the country, as well as dismisses all the democratic struggles that have and are taking place.

 

[version]

The Egyptians are now claiming they warned Israel but were ignored.

They're also claiming Bibi was shockingly indifferent about it and basically brushed them off, which he's saying is a lie.

 

[linebaugh]

The Wall Street Journal are claiming Iran were involved in planning the attacks, but Israeli military have since come out and said there's no evidence yet of Iranian involvement.

This was a huge thing I saw on reddit. Iran helping the attacks to disrupt diplomatic talks between israel and saudi arabia. Not sure what to take of that but its another instance where deep politics suddenly become legitimate when it supports centrist talking points

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Wonder what the mainstream consensus would be if Ukraine did something similar to the Russians. You'd assume the response would be very different.

so unlikely that it's hard to imagine but it would be a death knell for large-scale Western support

Zelenskyy would be the first and most vigorous to condemn it

even Russian govt knows it can't get away with this kind of thing. murdering civilians in secret and bombing them in cities, yes. this no.

this is some truly ISIS level stuff where you don't give a fuck about Western media or public opinion

that's what I was saying somewhere upthread, it's a major change from a display of victimization to one of strength