Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[chava]

"Only functioning democracy" sounds a lot like only white people can handle democracy unlike those stinky Arabs. As Padraig said, you're pretty ignorant. Whole lot of different Arab peoples have crying out for democracy for years and years, that's essentially what the Arab Spring was about.

It takes more than crying out

 

[mixed_biscuits]

(and this is place is not a community of friends lmao jesus christ)

Sounds like someone's volunteering to be social sec!

 

[chava]

If only the middle east was without

1) Oil

2) Jews, oh I mean ISRAEL

..it would be literally the place of milk and honey

 

[Mr. Tea]

If only the middle east was without

1) Oil

2) Jews, oh I mean ISRAEL

..it would be literally the place of milk and honey

I'm unable to tell whether you're just on a trolling mission here or actually are this much of a prick.

 

[version]

These are ultra orthodox and not so often you see that outside the country

This is the same thing you tried to pull when I argued with you about Jordan Peterson. You ask for an example of something, one's provided, then you try to refine your terms so you don't have to contend with it.

 

[DLaurent]

From what I gather from my mostly online travels, a lot of people think the world is run by sinister elites and principles of power. I am more sceptical and moderate and think the elites who make all these weapons and let them get to the places they do, they must know quite a lot. If I was in the area I'd probably find a safer place to live, but some people will want to stay and fight and have their reasons so I don't judge too much. I have a fighting streak too.

 

[droid]

These are ultra orthodox and not so often you see that outside the country

lol, you fuckwit. Haredi Jews make up about 14% of Israel, about 1.2 million, more than half of the total global orthodox population, predicted to consist of 50% of Israelis by 2060.

 

[version]

Also will be interesting to see what role, if any, generative AI plays in the online media dimensions of this conflict. Raw AI-generated footage is still mostly primitive enough to detect, especially with the scrutiny entailed by a serious conflict like this, but AI-generated speech and translation I think is more mission-ready.

Just saw an example of a falsely translated clip of Putin saying that Russia will back Palestine if US backs Israel. Pretty sure it was false, anyway.

Someone allegedly did this with Starmer the other day.

Deepfake Audio Is a Political Nightmare

British fact-checkers are racing to debunk a suspicious audio recording of UK opposition leader Keir Starmer.

www.wired.co.uk

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

It takes more than crying out

yes, clearly the reason that there aren't more Arab democracies is that their citizens aren't trying hard enough

definitely not the endless string of (usually foreign-backed) brutal repression, military coups, foreign military interventions, proxy civil wars, etc

I'm sure if Syrians, Egyptians, Bahrains, etc just tried harder they could will democracy into existence

really galling statement

 

[chava]

This is the same thing you tried to pull when I argued with you about Jordan Peterson. You ask for an example of something, one's provided, then you try to refine your terms so you don't have to contend with it.

But I asked for examples from outside of Israel, not extremists in Jerusalem.

 

[chava]

lol, you fuckwit. Haredi Jews make up about 14% of Israel, about 1.2 million, more than half of the total global orthodox population, predicted to consist of 50% of Israelis by 2060.

Yeah, they have kids unlike the rest of the developed world. They know what's at stake

 

[version]

But I asked for examples from outside of Israel, not extremists in Jerusalem.

You said Israeli people and Jewish people living outside Israel. There are Israeli people in Israel as well as outside it. Also, someone being an extremist doesn't mean they aren't Jewish or Israeli.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

If I was in the area I'd probably find a safer place to live, but some people will want to stay and fight and have their reasons so I don't judge too much.

how can they leave, if they wanted to? Israel (and Egypt) make Gaza one of the most difficult places on Earth to travel to and from

and with what $ should relocate and restart? the unemployment rate in Gaza is nearly 50%

and right now it's impossible to leave

Netanyahu has, Kafkaesque, totally closed the country off and simultaneously told people to leave

and all of that aside their are other concerns than safety. if you leave you won't be able to come back. that's the heart of this entire conflict.

 

[version]

how fucking deranged the Israeli right-wing is, etc

I read something earlier about the head of Shin Bet raising concerns about settler attacks on Palestinians increasing the security threat to Israel and members of Likud attacking him and claiming "the ideology of the left" and "the deep state" had infiltrated the top levels of Shin Bet and the IDF...

 

[Mr. Tea]

If I was in the area I'd probably find a safer place to live, but some people will want to stay and fight and have their reasons so I don't judge too much. I have a fighting streak too.

That's probably easier said than done if you live in Gaza, which is surrounded mainly either by barbed wire, land mines, machine gun nests etc., or the sea, except for a short border with Egypt, which obviously doesn't want you either. And even if you get out, what then? You're just a stateless refugee, not even someone from a 'proper' country with a consulate in foreign capitals that night be able to help them.

Edit: I see P has already addressed this fairly obvious point.

In fact something you don't hear discussed much is the widespread prejudice and discrimination against Palestinians in the Middle East outside Israel - in the other, predominantly Arab and Muslim, countries.

 

[DLaurent]

how can they leave, if they wanted to? Israel (and Egypt) make Gaza one of the most difficult places on Earth to travel to and from

and with what $ should relocate and restart? the unemployment rate in Gaza is nearly 50%

and right now it's impossible to leave

Netanyahu has, Kafkaesque, totally closed the country off and simultaneously told people to leave

and all of that aside their are other concerns than safety. if you leave you won't be able to come back. that's the heart of this entire conflict.

I don't have the information about what you talk about, I thought people could run if it they want, but from what I gather, people form most of their opinions based on their own perceived humanitarianism. That's not to be criticised, but even though people die... I like to think good people run the show.

 

[version]

Wonder what the mainstream consensus would be if Ukraine did something similar to the Russians. You'd assume the response would be very different.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Yeah, they have kids unlike the rest of the developed world. They know what's at stake

they have kids because of their religious beliefs, not some tradbro fixation on birth rates

please learn a single thing about Jewish people before you continue talking about them. like a single thing.

 

[DLaurent]

That's probably easier said than done if you live in Gaza, which is surrounded mainly either by barbed wire, land mines, machine gun nests etc., or the sea, except for a short border with Egypt, which obviously doesn't want you either. And even if you get out, what then? You're just a stateless refugee, not even someone from a 'proper' country with a consulate in foreign capitals that night be able to help them.

In fact something you don't hear discussed much is the widespread prejudice and discrimination against Palestinians in the Middle East outside Israel - in the other, predominantly Arab and Muslim, countries.

Why don't other countries in the area help them? I'd be going Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon for a start.

 

[Clinamenic]

Wonder what the mainstream consensus would be if Ukraine did something similar to the Russians. You'd assume the response would be very different.

Didn't something similar kinda happen? Something like Ukraine planning some counter-offensive on Russian soil, asking for Starlink support, and Elon saying no (probably for optics-related reasons)?