UK EU Referendum Aftermath

john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
Mr. Tea said:
Newsflash: London isn't most of the UK or even most of England.
Click to expand...

Who is suggesting that it is?

Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool etc voted remain. Which could lead to an interesting discussion on the differences in voting patterns amongst working class people who live in multi-ethnic or mono-ethnic urban communities and the degrees of difference.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
john eden said:
Some quick things, sorry it's been a hectic week.

1. I don't regret abstaining in the referendum, even though like many people I predicted the result wrongly.

2. Whilst the Harris article is generally correct to say that poor people voted out, this simply isn't true in inner London boroughs like Hackney, Tower Hamlets etc. If you overlay this with age demographics it all gets quite complicated.

3. Bottom line: I underestimated how angry people are. That anger will only intensify when people realise that a Leave vote won't deliver them what they were promised. Obviously I would prefer it if they didn't channel it in racist ways but that seems naïve now. I do think the potential for a new politics is there and can still be seized from the far right though.

4. Corbyn isn't going anywhere because he actually believes in what he is doing. It's not a pragmatic/career thing as it seems to be for many of his Labour opponents. I don't think a split in the Labour party would be a terrible thing if it lead to a coalition with the SNP / Greens etc. I have no idea if that is realistic though. Probably it isn't.

5. There isn't going to be a second referendum.

6. I don't know what is going to happen economically and I don't think anyone does. (Yes it will be quite bad in the short term). Given that the alternative was the certainty of grinding austerity you can see why people went for the nuclear option of uncertainty really.
Click to expand...

agreed with all that, especially points 3 and 4. There's room for hope still. Even if people don't want Corbyn, siding against him with the centrists is unforgivable. There has to be someone saying that austerity is a bad thing, and it sure as hell isn't going to be anyone who replaces him, by the looks of it. As you say, what are the beliefs of Corbyn's opponents - they haven't said anything which suggests they have any at all (obvs there are some exceptions, and some good MPs in amongst the dross)

What option a new left party as in Spain, if the Labour Party explodes? And then the kind of coalition politics you mention, as Podemos have tried
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
john eden said:
Who is suggesting that it is?

Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool etc voted remain. Which could lead to an interesting discussion on the differences in voting patterns amongst working class people who live in multi-ethnic or mono-ethnic urban communities and the degrees of difference.
Click to expand...

OK, fine. It's just that the existence of large, ethnically mixed cities where lots of working-class people (of all ethnicities) who voted Remain does not negate the general fact that people who voted Remain are on average in higher socioeconomic groups - to be blunt, are richer - than Leave voters.

Also, let's not forget that non-white people can vote. Taking Tower Hamlets as an example: given that the Leave campaign focussed so heavily on stoking up xenophobic sentiment, is it any wonder there was an overall Remain vote in areas where most people aren't white British?
 
Last edited:
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Mr. Tea said:
OK, fine. It's just that the existence of large, ethnically mixed cities where lots of working-class people (of all ethnicities) who voted Remain does not negate the general fact that people who voted Remain are on average in higher socioeconomic groups - and, to be blunt, are richer - than Leave voters.
Click to expand...

I think it's important to be blunt on this, in order not to obscure the fact that for many people, the whole thing had nothing to do with the benefits/drawbacks of the EU. Racism/xenophobia (and wanting to avoid an increase in these) and austerity were surely the guiding issues, themselves interdependent of course. And for most non-white and white perceived-'foreign' working class people (and those in solidarity with them), the very obviously legitimate fear of increased racism and far right activity in the event of Brexit would outweigh a vote against austerity I imagine.
 
Sectionfive

Sectionfive

bandwagon house
john eden said:
b) because the centrists are so craven that they would rather destroy their own party than have Corbyn at the helm?
Click to expand...


The completely OTT reaction since the leadership election shows how they and other interested parties go full erratic at the very first sign of power and long held certainty slipping so it's entirely possible but I think there is a lot more to it than scorched earth. Some key paragraphs in this from last August are a good guide to where some of their thinking is rooted but their are all sorts of reasons, timeless and new.

However, given this generation know nothing other than dismantling the party and parliamentary politics more broadly as a force for change and genuine conflict I don't see why they wouldn't be content to scuttle the whole thing, at least in its current form. Some sort of split if not several is almost inevitable because Labour are not immune to the sort of fragmentation we are seeing in right across politics. It just so happens Corybn's election and first-past-the-post rightly or wrongly have prolonged the perception of Labour as a still useful of not the only vehicle when similar parties elsewhere are more dramatically dying in a ditch of their own making.

With this recent heave against the leadership I think they were eager to insure he wasn't in a position to capitalise on the tory civil war shit show that either result was likely to produce. They couldn't afford to leave that uncertainty open to chance because there is a tension between believing his politics cannot win an election and unspoken fear that he cannot be written off. When you've completely swallowed the road of Murdoch appeasement and all the rest as the correct and only way of doing things even the slimmest chance that he might gain edge while conservatives murder each other must be smothered.

It all seems like shadow boxing to me though. If they didn't have Corbyn to project all this stuff onto they would have to deal with far greater questions about party decline and you could even say there is underlining acceptance that the writing is on the wall for the Labour Party in any of the forms we've known it. It seems very much the case elsewhere so all the jockeying is just a matter of being in the most advantageous position to benefit from the ashes.
 
Last edited:
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
CmI3oVGWgAEP5iR.jpg
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Stephen Crabb's amazing explanation for why his voting against gay marriage doesn't make him a massive homophobe:

' “I want to deal with that head-on,” he said at his launch. “We had a debate in the last parliament, I voted the way I did, but I’m very happy with the outcome. That issue is now settled.” '

and:

 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Is the assumption that any Labour MP who doesn't have confidence in Corbyn must necessarily be a "Blairite" entirely fair? I mean, isn't it at least theoretically possible that some of them come from a similar place to him ideologically but just don't think he's the man for the job?

And if that much of the PLP really doesn't want him and it's an ideological issue for all or most of them, it's clear to me that what the country desperately needs is a new left-wing party.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Absolutely, some of them definitely aren't Blairites. But they're making a ludicrously bad decision, by aligning themselves with people who definitely are Blairites, and who definitely did not take against Corbyn based on any evidence from his actual leadership. Those people are still smarting from defeat last autumn; they don't want a Labour Party opposing austerity and the forces that created it, because t do so would make the party 'unelectable', and they value power above any set of principles (power to do what? to be generally unprincipled on a wider scale). Which is about as desperately unambitious a position as could be, and enormously cynical about voters in the UK (OK, I know, I know...but I do think many people would vote for a clear anti-austerity platform). Why would a left-wingish Labour MP make a decision that will allow the Eagles or Benns of the party to step into the leadership?

I think this is a good article on this general area from last August:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/rory-scothorne/who’s-afraid-of-jeremy-corbyn

New left-wing party if Corbyn loses the new leadership election, yep. But what if he wins?
 
Last edited:
Corpsey

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Last edited:
sufi

sufi

lala
Corpsey said:
''Sarah Vine, who is married to Mr Gove, appears to have accidentally sent the message intended for her husband to a third party.'' LOL

These power struggles expose the fact that The Thick of It isn't even really a comedy, at least in premise.
Click to expand...
"accidentally"

does anyone know who was that 3rd party?
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
martin

You have to remember that we won the war, unlike those French poofs who surrendered the moment the Jerries came into site. We smoke, eat and drink too much because we're hard bastards. The French think they're sophisticated by looking down their conks at our cuisine, but it's not our fault - while they were lazing around, eating cheese that stinks of athlete's foot and inventing new sexual perversions, we were spending all our dosh on weapons, to make sure the Third Reich got the hiding it bloody deserved. We didn't have time to make 'croque monsieurs', in any case, chops and boiled cabbage are good enough for any man. Also, we know we're shit at everything, so we don't have to try that hard or live up to expectations. Unlike your average fucking Italian, who throws a tantrum like a spoilt little pageant queen if you insult his pesto-guzzling old bat of a mum. Our transvestites are much better as well, they beat up straights in rugby shirts, the German ones just listen to shit microhouse and get upset if they chip a fake nail.

The Finns are pretty cool, they're the most practical, placid people when they're sober. Get a few bottles of vodka down them and they morph into viking beserkers, smashing tables to matchwood, headbutting their spouses and setting fire to their cars 'for a laugh'. The next day, all covered in blood and bruises and stinking of puke, they just have a shower and shave and go back to the office.
Click to expand...

classic martin quote
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
i think i met him once he was goading me to get on the unattended drum kit left on the stage at the palm tree in mile end a pub i had been kicked out of in semi-disgrace about a fortnight earlier, or maybe that was someone else. he looked like tom watson.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top