reggae and overt religiosity

[mms]

Well I'm glad that you can respond to it in a coherent way that you are happy with, and I'm certainly not challenging your right to do so. However, unfortunately it just so happens that I don't feel capable of doing anything similiar myself. I'm wholly confident that many aspects of my life would be regarded as supremely Babylonian by a comitted Rasta, and not just of who I am, the background I'm from, but because of things I do, things I've actually made a choice about. And the thing is, with at least some (if not all) of those things, I feel that I'm justified in doing them, they're things that I've thought about and come to the reasoned conclusion that they're the right thing to, so there we have a genuine clash of beliefs.
The whole concept of Babylon is in fact one of things I disagree with most strongly in Rastafari, it's such an unhelpful, Big Other type of idea, no better than old hippies wittering on about the System or the Man - the idea that there's one single, coherent thing that is at the root of all of your problems in life, and that belief in that thing allows you to comfortably divide the world up into 'them' and 'us', just doesn't ring true with any of my experience of the world. I'm also strongly opposed to any belief system which promotes the idea of a 'chosen people', or a chosen land/nation. Since I've been slagging him off a bit as per usual, I should say that this is something that k-punk is very good on, the idea that 'there is no good ethnicity' and that the false belief in such cannot form the basis for a politics.
Finally, whilst I don't doubt the scriptural accuracy of your claim that there is no single 'right' way to follow Rastafari, I would have to say that this doesn't match up with my experience of Rastas expounding their beliefs, or indeed with the commentary of experienced observers like yourself.


Edit: but, y'know, I'm honestly not having a go at all. I'm just trying to explain why I personally don't feel comfortable with closely associating myself with the Rastafari faith, even on a cultural/political level.

watch this then tell me that babylon is some kind of hippy grumbling.
http://www.lifeanddebt.org/

 

[Tentative Andy]

^^ I'll gladly have a look at the film when I've got some time, but I think you might be misunderstanding. I never claimed that Jamaicans didn't have many problems and legitimate grievances to make. I'm not stupid. My point that was blaming it all on some super-entity called 'Babylon' seems to me not much better than blaming the Devil, or the Illuminati etc. It doesn't work like that.

 

[Mr. Tea]

They (the SA government) have been pretty slow off the mark over HIV/Aids of course, though I don't think this has much to do with homophobia or gay rights issues since the virus is spread mainly through heterosexual contact in that part of the world.

 

[Mr. Tea]

^^ I'll gladly have a look at the film when I've got some time, but I think you might be misunderstanding. I never claimed that Jamaicans didn't have many problems and legitimate grievances to make. I'm not stupid. My point that was blaming it all on some super-entity called 'Babylon' seems to me not much better than blaming the Devil, or the Illuminati etc. It doesn't work like that.

But do many rastas really think about Babylon in terms that concrete, though? Like the Bilderburg Group or the Trilateral Commission or something? I'd have thought most people who use the term do so metaphorically, in the knowledge that it's just a handy signifier for a whole culture and a tradition of politics that's hostile to and exploitative of black people. Rather than an actual Committee For Oppressing Blacks that's chaired by the Queen and has an AGM and a newsletter...

 

[Tentative Andy]

But do many rastas really think about Babylon in terms that concrete, though? Like the Bilderburg Group or the Trilateral Commission or something? I'd have thought most people who use the term do so metaphorically, in the knowledge that it's just a handy signifier for a whole culture and a tradition of politics that's hostile to and exploitative of black people. Rather than an actual Committee For Oppressing Blacks that's chaired by the Queen and has an AGM and a newsletter...

Yeah fair point, I explained that very badly. I suppose in the case of the Babylon concept, it's not the personification/anthropomorphim that's the problem (as my example prob suggested), it's the reduction involved in it. I don't think it's a charicature of some strands of Rasta belief to view them as claiming that everything that they don't like about the world counts as an example of Babylon, in the same way that for some fundamentalist Catholics all wrong-doing in the world is at root the result of the work of the Devil. Thus rave, disco, jungle, house etc would all often be labelled as 'Babylon music' because they are secular and often centre around pills and other drugs rather than ganja-smoking, regardless of the fact that not only are they differing styles of music, they are ones that have often been opposed to each other. Again, to my mind it just doesn't make sense to divide the world in half like that.
My other point, which may be another way of saying the same thing, is, well, why not call a spade a spade? (no pun intended). If what you are oppossed to is the political oppression of black people, why not just say you are oppossed to the political opression of black people. What is gained by couching it in religious, vaguely metaphysical, vaguely superstitious sounding language? Not that this is a problem of the Rastafari faith alone, of course.

 

[mms]

^^ I'll gladly have a look at the film when I've got some time, but I think you might be misunderstanding. I never claimed that Jamaicans didn't have many problems and legitimate grievances to make. I'm not stupid. My point that was blaming it all on some super-entity called 'Babylon' seems to me not much better than blaming the Devil, or the Illuminati etc. It doesn't work like that.

do rastas blame the devil or the illuminati or a super entity?
no
you think they're hippies again don't you?
the only connection is war, hippys opposed the war in vietnam, poverty and oppression are a constant state of war.

 

[Mr. Tea]

My other point, which may be another way of saying the same thing, is, well, why not call a spade a spade? (no pun intended). If what you are oppossed to is the political oppression of black people, why not just say you are oppossed to the political opression of black people. What is gained by couching it in religious, vaguely metaphysical, vaguely superstitious sounding language? Not that this is a problem of the Rastafari faith alone, of course.

Well I can't talk from any subjective position here, because I am and always have been an atheist - probably correlated to the fact that I'm not a dirt-poor Jamaican - but I can appreciate that there must be a huge psychological appeal in framing your great struggle in terms that are not merely political and humanitarian but also spiritual, even sacred. I mean, doesn't that make some sense?

In this context the Rastafari movement probably closely mirrors Christianity in its infancy.

 

[Room with a view]

I heard about the Mayan calendar and 2012 long before I heard of McKenna or had an internet connection. It doesn't come 'directly' from him at all.

Regardless of all the hype, the reason it gets attention is because the Mayan calender is based on astronomical data and is ridiculously accurate..

^quoted for relevence

But the whole 2012/Mayan calender schtick comes directly from McKenna - if you saying there's going to be some sort of global change at this point in time, McKenna is ultimately your source. I find it a bit surprising that you can be basically quoting his ideas back at me without having read him but that's the internet for you - ideas percolate all the time with little intervening thought.

fuck terence mckenna and what he thought. the link you posted was the first i'd heard of his kooky ideas. as far as i know i'm not quoting any of his ideas back at you. just so happens i was into mayan culture in my teens with an avid interest in astronomy and polynesian navigation which later translated into a fascination about time and how we percieve/measure it.

I don't see much signs of a global shift in consciousness on the horizon

might want to take the blinkers off and broaden your horizon then.

 

[Room with a view]

reggae is rebel music. smoking weed while skanking out and chanting down babylon makes a man feel good and watching a man feeling good is infectious. makes him also feel like a rebel even if he's soooo not. as does reasoning.

 

[DannyL]

might want to take the blinkers off and broaden your horizon then.

I have blinkers on because I don't think there will a global shift in consciousness in two and a half years time? That is actually what you are saying?

CAN WE HAVE A POLL?

 

[DannyL]

To quote myself from earlier:

But why is the Mayan calendar worthy of our consideration? There are thousands of calendars throughout human history which all put as at different points - the Mayan culture has been dead for centuries now and has no relevance to us, it isn't close to us culturally at all. Why should we pick it up and start applying its dates to our lives?

It may well be very accurate but SO WHAT? Lots of ancient cultures had capabilities that surprise us. It doesn't mean any dates given in it are going to be relevant for us. It doesn't mean that 2012 is going to be anything more than another year.

 

[baboon2004]

That is actually what you are saying?

on a side note, this cracked me up.

as you were.

 

[john eden]

My other point, which may be another way of saying the same thing, is, well, why not call a spade a spade? (no pun intended). If what you are oppossed to is the political oppression of black people, why not just say you are oppossed to the political opression of black people. What is gained by couching it in religious, vaguely metaphysical, vaguely superstitious sounding language? Not that this is a problem of the Rastafari faith alone, of course.

Is it not possible, historically, that there have been moments when black people have not been able to articulate their resistance to oppression in an overt way, do you think?

and might that covert language not become part of a tradition of resistance, maybe?

 

[Room with a view]

the global shift is happening NOW. how can you not see it, feel it or even be aware of it? its synchronicitous with war, religion, pollution, peak oil, deforestation, overfishing, extinction, climate change, the credit crunch, globalisation, the internet and a whole bunch of things. basically i'm saying we are all looking at or starting to look at things holistically and collectively, from a totally different perspective which as tribes, classes, ethnicities, cultures, nations etc we have never had to previously and that the effect of that will hit critical mass and be felt in 3 years and i dont think it'll be what you expect from your mckenna teachings. maybe it'll be the arrival of the singularity.who knows ? you think what you like and i'll do likewise.

of course you could have your poll but remember 98% of the human population believes in the god of the old testament too. it proves nothing.

funnily enough babel in the old testament was the root word of babble and babylon. and if you remember the story. the langauges of man were scrambled so none could communicate effectively with others. it is only now that we are once again building towers unto the heavens and the language of the white middle class is coalescing with the black underclass in a virtual reality of our own making. we are becoming as god which is what it feared would happen when it collapsed the tower.

coincidence?...i think not

It doesn't mean that 2012 is going to be anything more than another year.

more specifically the date 20/12/2012. my birthday. so what i'd like to do with my personal REVOLUTION is, rather than sit around waiting to see if something will happen. i'm going to make 'something' happen in 2012 and if enough people do the same, 'something' will. something i or no one can possibly predict through an ancient calender. remebering of course that nothing is something in itself and that sometimes when nothing happens it also causes a shift in consciousness.

 

[Mr. Tea]

just so happens i was into mayan culture in my teens with an avid interest in astronomy and polynesian navigation which later translated into a fascination about time and how we percieve/measure it.

What are your thoughts on human sacrifice?

The Mayans divided time up into a nested system of cycles-within-cycles; whenever one really big cycle ended and another began, there was a chance Time itself would come to an end and the only way to avert the apocalypse was to appease the gods through human sacrifice. The bigger the cycle that was ending, the more serious the problem and the more sacrifices were needed. (Sorry if you know all this, RWIV, I just thought a brief overview might be useful here.) AFAIK, 2012 marks the transition from one such major cycle to another. So really, worrying about this kind of thing is a bit like a pre-modern, spiritual version of the Millennium Bug panic.

But I think the idea that 2012 marks some kind of great cosmic transition is essentially a fabrication of modern New Age types and has no particular basis in Mayan myth, let alone reality. My prediction for three years' time is that the world will be slightly more crowded, slightly more politically unstable and slightly warmer - business as usual, in other words.

Edit: sorry, off-topic again...

 

[john eden]

you think what you like and i'll do likewise.

ok

remember 98% of the human population believes in the god of the old testament too. it proves nothing.

98% of the human population are jewish now?!

it is only now that we are once again building towers unto the heavens and the language of the white middle class is coalescing with the black underclass in a virtual reality of our own making

Yes this has never happened before and especially not in the sixties.

more specifically the date 20/12/2012. my birthday.

enjoy that first legal pint.

 

[Slothrop]

AFAIK, 2012 marks the transition from one such major cycle to another. So really, worrying about this kind of thing is a bit like a pre-modern, spiritual version of the Millennium Bug panic.

But all the 32 stepped pyramids are going to crash at once!

 

[baboon2004]

yes, 98 per cent of the world's population of Jewish. It's a fucking conspiracy, i tell you.


Cease your naysaying. The most disastrous event in world history will indeed occur in 2012, an event of unparalleled destruction, shame and collapse.

The London Olympics.

 

[Mr. Tea]

yes, 98 per cent of the world's population of Jewish. It's a fucking conspiracy, i tell you.


Cease your naysaying. The most disastrous event in world history will indeed occur in 2012, an event of unparalleled destruction, shame and collapse.

The London Olympics.

Oi! I said that pages ago!

 

[scottdisco]

fucking tune

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also i only discovered just the other day Droid did his top 20 ragga for FACT, safe

(hi Droid!)


i advise everybody to watch hit US TV show FlashForward - there may be answers therein