The Event : How Racist Are You?

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Uh, what? Cozy world?

Growing up in a the backwoods of Iowa in the early-mid 20th century hardly qualifies as a "cozy world".

It's entirely symptomatic that people prefer to come up with all sorts of weird, labyrinthine justifications regarding why they should hate the facilitator of the exercise in an effort skirt the real issue here, which is staring them in the face. Racism is the issue. Racism as a function of privilege.

I really don't get how anyone could object to any of what Elliot's said or done, or the to exercise, or to what it unearthed, or to what the participants felt was accomplished, or anything.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
This thread is disturbing. It really is.

The blind rage and hatred that's stirred up at the mere *suggestion* that people discriminate based on phenotypes.

Surprise, surprise--it's all white males who want to "smash" the person who dares speak out in the face. Or make sure she gets fucked. Whichever comes first.
 

don_quixote

Trent End
she was really fucking annoying. so small-minded and refusing to actually listen to whatever anyone is telling her. denying anyone's opinions as irrelevant as if her life is so fucking hard.

i would never smash anyone in the face. obviously.

----

just reading that post above it seems ive been misread. i meant the teacher in the blue-eyed group who went on about her scruffy rugby player husband and how he has to conform and how the kids with brown skin in her class scraped herself and it was pink underneath. not the american woman. she was great i thought.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Just watching the bit where the brown-eyed group are told what they are expected to do, and some of them walk out in protest. I agree with people who were saying that first lad to go came over as pretty smug and studenty, but the personality aspects aren't what it's all about. The white brown-eyed people who dissent from their role are presented - both by the teacher and by the presenter and psycologists who are monitoring and interpreting for us - as doing so because they are uncomfortable with opressing fellow white people, and as therefore secretly racist.
This overlooks the possibility that they might be uncomfortable opressing people based on arbitrary physical differences in general, or indeed uncomforable with opressing people full-stop. (And isn't the experiment officialy centred around eye-colour not skin-colour anyway?) Of course, we can't know for sure what's going on in their heads (and neither can the people running the experiment), and it's a plausible interpretation in some cases. But to argue that refusing to participate in simulated racism is automatic proof that you are yourself a racist seems like somewhat backwards logic to me.

No, you're missing the point of this part of the exercise entirely. The reason why the facilitator and whichever psychologists might be involved (I haven't seen any involved in any renditions I've watched) would tell the people who try to bow out of the exercise because they object to judging other based on phenotypes that they can't opt out is because, in real life, you can't opt out of these social dynamics. You can't opt out of being seen as part of a social group. You can't opt out of white privilege if you're white. And if you're black or a minority, if you dare to step outside your proscribed role, you're quickly put back in your place. This is what the facilitators are trying to simulate.

That is why I posted the video part 6 of 6 before, where that's made abundantly clear.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
she was really fucking annoying. so small-minded and refusing to actually listen to whatever anyone is telling her. denying anyone's opinions as irrelevant as if her life is so fucking hard.

i would never smash anyone in the face. obviously.

How could anyone watch any of those videos and get that out of it?

She was excitedly asking for reactions, she was ESPECIALLY interested in getting negative ones, because they proved her point. I didn't see her "silencing" anyone, especially not dissenters.

Edit: Sorry, wrong teacher, was confused.
 
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droid

Guest
Surprise, surprise--it's all white males who want to "smash" the person who dares speak out in the face. Or make sure she gets fucked. Whichever comes first.

I think they were talking about the teacher who was participating in the experiment?
 

massrock

Well-known member
nomadhethird said:
She was excitedly asking for reactions, she was ESPECIALLY interested in getting negative ones, because they proved her point. I didn't see her "silencing" anyone, especially not dissenters.
It did play out a bit differently in the Ch.4 program, possibly in part because of the TV people interfering with the format. That's speculation on my part, I don't know how much control she did or didn't have. It wasn't about her life though, that's a strange conclusion to come to. I'd certainly recommend watching the Class Divided doc on youtube.

The psychologists in this program were there 'behind the scenes' explaining things for the thick audience. They weren't directly involved in the workshop.

Edit - OIC - I made the same mistake. Wrong teacher.
 
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droid

Guest
Can we stop talking about hitting and fucking people because we hate them, anyway?

Dont ask me. I'm sure its possible.

Regardless - as you havent seen the video - there is a primary school teacher who makes some particularly noxious comments whilst protesting against the experiment.
 

massrock

Well-known member
That woman, the wrong teacher, was one of the best things though. so transparently revealing of the Little Englander mentality, so unaware. That's what it was all about.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
Yeah ok, just to echo all the clearing-up, when I quoted d_q and agreed with him, (a) I was referring to the primary school teacher on the blue-eyed group. She was one of the people on the programme that I would be most tempted to actually call a racist, and (b) I didn't actually mean that I wanted to hit her, I was expressing my anger towards her, and I suppose also indicating to d_q that I wasn't wholly unsympathetic to his interpretation of the programme. But obviously, doing so in a way that endorsed that kind of language wasn't clever, or helpful to the overall discussion. So fair dos. I apologise on that one.
 

don_quixote

Trent End
i think it is perfectly natural to have a violent reaction to that level of imbecility and obnoxiousness, knowing full well it is on a television screen. if i was confronted with her i would have walked away long before she had said her worst. if i remember correctly she said "i walked in knowing i didn't need to change my opinions". and this woman is a teacher? jesus christ.

i have to wonder, by the way, why teachers agree to be on any television programme. a teacher from my old sixth form was on come dine with me the other week and came across as a complete mentalist. i don't know how i'd cope with that level of scrutiny into my private life once i'd returned to the classroom. similarly i think if i had a child and the woman on this programme (the blonde haired blue eyed brit) was his or her teacher i would absolutely flip that this ignoramus was going to have a significant influence on my child's life.
 
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droid

Guest
Yeah ok, just to echo all the clearing-up, when I quoted d_q and agreed with him, (a) I was referring to the primary school teacher on the blue-eyed group. She was one of the people on the programme that I would be most tempted to actually call a racist, and (b) I didn't actually mean that I wanted to hit her, I was expressing my anger towards her, and I suppose also indicating to d_q that I wasn't wholly unsympathetic to his interpretation of the programme. But obviously, doing so in a way that endorsed that kind of language wasn't clever, or helpful to the overall discussion. So fair dos. I apologise on that one.


Nah. You were fine. A smash in the face would be a bit OTT though.

A good kick in the gee would be fine.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
No, you're missing the point of this part of the exercise entirely. The reason why the facilitator and whichever psychologists might be involved (I haven't seen any involved in any renditions I've watched) would tell the people who try to bow out of the exercise because they object to judging other based on phenotypes that they can't opt out is because, in real life, you can't opt out of these social dynamics. You can't opt out of being seen as part of a social group. You can't opt out of white privilege if you're white. And if you're black or a minority, if you dare to step outside your proscribed role, you're quickly put back in your place. This is what the facilitators are trying to simulate.

Thanks for responding on this. I wouldn't disagree as such with what you've said.
I haven't watch the videos you posted yet - I was concentrating on the C4 documentary, but will do so now. But I'm sure the explanation you give here applies to them, and it also makes a lot of sense as a general explanation of that part of the experiment, considered in the abstract.

However, my criticism was directed specifically at the way this segment was played out in the C4 documentary. Here, it was claimed, particularly by the tv psychologists who as massrock explained were placed in a behind-the-scenes role explaining the activity for the audience at home, that those white people who refused to take part in the exercise were really doing so because it would be other white people that they were oppressing, and that this suddenly made them feel uncomfortable.
This is an unfair interpretation in my eyes, because it assumes that they would be perfectly comfortable with the oppression of any other race, despite no evidence at this stage being given to suggest this - indeed, from what some of them actually said when explaing why they didn't want to continue, it seemed very likely that they wouldn't be happy at all to oppress other races.

Now, one might say that, no matter what these people's personal beliefs were or even how they behaved, they were still 'guilty' of the priviledge of being white in a white-dominated and white-lead society. I think this is true in some way, though we need to be careful how we formulate it.
But this kind of 'tacit racism' is very different from the kind of explicit, active, rule-encoded racism that the people were being asked to engage in during the experiment - being rude to people, treating them in a demeaning, patronising manner, forcing them to sit in certain places, forcing them to eat and not eat certain food, and so on. That's my basic criticism, yet again: the kind of racism simulated in the experiment is not an accurate reflection of the racism in our contemporary society, and this reduces the relevancy of the experiment.
 

Dusty

Tone deaf
Some people seem to have misunderstood what I tried to point out - probably because I worded it pretty badly; but I wasn't disagreeing with the gist of the experiment - or that white people are racist...that we exist within a racist social structure in the UK. That is obvious.

BUT, and this is the but - I simply didn't think it right to summarise by focusing entirely on white racism no matter how terrible the crimes of history. There are racist factions of other ethnic groups in the UK, that is just a sad fact - it isn't ammunition for the BNP. My throwaway example of Asian gangs (which I have experienced and do exist) was probably a bit sensationalist... they certainly aren't rampaging across the country - nor did I say all Asian youths, I was just trying to highlight other groups that are part of the UK. It isn't all skinheads and English Defence League.

It's not ok to make the statement 'all white people are racist' in my book - that is a racist statement in and of itself. If you want to deal with racism - deal with all racism as a human condition and break down social boundaries on all sides. Yes elements of Asian youth may be disaffected because of their poor treatment by the white mainstream but that still doesn't justify a racist reaction as an outlet for that. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
i think it is perfectly natural to have a violent reaction to that level of imbecility and obnoxiousness, knowing full well it is on a television screen. if i was confronted with her i would have walked away long before she had said her worst. if i remember correctly she said "i walked in knowing i didn't need to change my opinions". and this woman is a teacher? jesus christ.

i have to wonder, by the way, why teachers agree to be on any television programme. a teacher from my old sixth form was on come dine with me the other week and came across as a complete mentalist. i don't know how i'd cope with that level of scrutiny into my private life once i'd returned to the classroom. similarly i think if i had a child and the woman on this programme (the blonde haired blue eyed brit) was his or her teacher i would absolutely flip that this ignoramus was going to have a significant influence on my child's life.

No, I know you didn't really mean it and it was a figure of speech. It's just that in the context of the discussion, knowing that people actually have been smacked and shit over this stuff, I'm afraid language like that will always escalate and then you have a bunch of really angry people... I've seen it happen in person, too... it can get ugly. Even on the "good" anti-racist side.

Dusty, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that experiment is meant to focus on "white" racism. It's just meant to focus on racism, which happens to be against certain racial minorities more often than others.

Tentative Andy said:
That's my basic criticism, yet again: the kind of racism simulated in the experiment is not an accurate reflection of the racism in our contemporary society, and this reduces the relevancy of the experiment.

This is an interesting point to bring up, but I'm not sure I agree. I mean, look at the "shopping while black" and "driving while black" phenomena. Ask any white cop or security guard, and they'll say that they're "just doing their job" and they don't hate anyone. There are all sorts of things people do unconsciously to discriminate against people of color. My grandmother, for example, doesn't actively hate people of any race. But she's the first one to clutch her purse and lock her car doors and act terrified in a black neighborhood. That's the kind of discrimination and racism the exercise was trying to tease out. Creating a situation where black people (or any people) are told that they're inferior creates a psychological climate where people believe that about those people, whether they do so consciously or not.

Right? I mean it all seems so obvious to me.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag

?

When people say that things have changed so drastically that this exercise doesn't apply anymore, I wonder what world they're living in. What kind of tenuous thread connects them to reality, as Baboon put it.

There's all kinds of data on this stuff.

Black people are still discriminated against. Latinos are still discriminated against. Middle Easterners are still discriminated against. Women are still discriminated against.
 

vimothy

yurp
Amusingly, this was on the Metro's front page this morning:

BNP leader Nick Griffin 'racially abused by passer by'

British National Party leader Nick Griffin was racially abused by a man who made threatening "gun gestures" towards him, a court heard today.

The North West MEP was giving evidence in the trial of 23-year-old Tauriq Khalid, from Burnley, who is accused of shouting "white bastards" towards Griffin and other BNP members who were demonstrating in the Lancashire town.
 
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