Copenhagen

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
whatever he has to say on this particular subject is less than worthless.

You give no substantive argument, so I assume that they're just 'worthless' because they've consistently disagreed with what you believe. Heretics! Have them burnt at the stake! ;)

The question is still open: what is there not to like about climate change policy, for those of a leftist bent?
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
You give no substantive argument, so I assume that they're just 'worthless' because they've consistently disagreed with what you believe. Heretics! Have them burnt at the stake! ;)

The question is still open: what is there not to like about climate change policy, for those of a leftist bent?

hey, i'm as up for feel-good, self-righteous libertarian arguments attacking good-hearted, if grandstanding, church leaders and New Labourites as much as the next bod :)

but it's just i'm not really interested in the overall pose of Furedi, however, or - indeed - the question about what there is not to like about climate change policy for those of a leftist bent (i came on the thread to observe by implication that the vast majority of scientists support the climate change thesis, and nothing else, and are not offering to address the question you cite, incidentally); i am just observing the article above is of a piece w Furedi's very, very long-running (almost tediously so) trope on climate change and the nanny state, a rather 'wah! boo, he took my toys away' style that Furedi is so competent at (his colleague Mick Hume is energetic w this too).
 

vimothy

yurp
Guess this is unsurprising, but still:

We provide quantitative evidence linking past internal armed conflict incidence to variations in temperature, finding substantial increases in conflict during warmer years, and we use this relationship to build projections of the potential effect of climate change on future conflict risk in Africa.

…When combined with climate model projections of future temperature trends, this historical response to temperature suggests a roughly 54% increase in armed conflict incidence by 2030, or an additional 393,000 battle deaths if future wars are as deadly as recent wars.

http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~emiguel/pdfs/miguel_climate.pdf
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Tee-hee

Acknowledged re Furedi and Hume

The issue of whether climate change policy is germane to leftists is very important, notwithstanding the fact that the identity of those who propound a belief doesn't have a bearing on whether the belief is justified or not.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
scary stuff, Vim.

Tee-hee

Acknowledged re Furedi and Hume

The issue of whether climate change policy is germane to leftists is very important, notwithstanding the fact that the identity of those who propound a belief doesn't have a bearing on whether the belief is justified or not.

strongly agreed wrt your closing thoughts, of course.

and tee hee indeed, my MO - that a priori views are clearly bad - often goes out the window when the spiked! crew are mentioned, i'm afraid :eek:

(as Craner would tell you.)
 

vimothy

yurp
The issue of whether climate change policy is germane to leftists is very important, notwithstanding the fact that the identity of those who propound a belief doesn't have a bearing on whether the belief is justified or not.

Interestingly, it's might also be true that "leftists" (a pretty broad brush!) don't like the more obvious solutions to climate change, like more or better defined property rights: http://www.env-econ.net/2009/12/fro...fers-to-save-indonesian-forests-first-th.html
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The question is still open: what is there not to like about climate change policy, for those of a leftist bent

Well there's a sizeable segment of the hard left these days that is openly contemptuous of 'green' politics generally - Zizek certainly has little time for it.

Then there's the leftist argument that if the developed world is allowed to be, er, devloped, then the rest of the world is too. Leftists aren't necessarily opposed to industry, are they? Z-boy for one is pretty much the exact opposite of a hippy (which is why I'm starting to develop a certain respect for him ;) - though of course I still think this kind of cavalier anti-environmentalism is a very dangerous attitude).

Heretics! Have them burnt at the stake! ;)

In spirit, yes - we're currently investigating a carbon-neutral process for disposing of heretics.
 
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vimothy

yurp
I think I have a reasonable feel for the development issues, but not so much the actual science. Mr Tea, can you sum up the state of knowledge for us in one easy to digest post, and throw in a few links and that?
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
Got to say that climate change seems to be more of a concern for Grauniad-reading types (such as myself) than it does for Telegraph-reading types. However, science isn't realyy supposed to be political, it's supposed to be about observation and suchlike. Sorry if I took you one of your points a bit too seriously by the way :)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I think I have a reasonable feel for the development issues, but not so much the actual science. Mr Tea, can you sum up the state of knowledge for us in one easy to digest post, and throw in a few links and that?

Oh blimey, I've probably made myself sound much more knowledgeable on this than I actually am, but here goes anyway - most of it will be just be stuff I remeber from lectures, articles, TV programmes or whatever, so I'll try and flesh it out with some links later.

Basically CO2 is transparent to visible light and what's called 'near' infra-red, i.e. IR near the visible part of the spectrum. Most of the Sun's energy output is in the form of this kind of radiation (there's also UV, but on Earth most of that is blocked by the ozone layer). This light is absorbed by the Earth's surface which then re-emits the energy in the form of much longer-wavelength radiation, i.e. far IR. This is because the hotter (cooler) an object is, the shorter (longer) the peak wavelength it emits in - so a blue flame is hotter than a yellow one, for instance.

Anyway, CO2 is opaque to far IR so this energy radiated back up into the sky is either absorbed by the atmosphere or reflected back down to the surface. Glass does much the same thing, which is how a greenhouse works and why the global analogue is called the greenhouse effect. The result is a heating of the surface, the sea and the lower atmosphere. In itself, this is no bad thing as without it the Earth would be unable to support much in the way of life - it would be too hot on the day side and too cold on the night side, like Mercury, which has no atmosphere - of course the atmosphere helps protect us from solar radiation, as well us insulate us from the cold of space. So it's due to the greenhouse that the planet is hospitable to complex life in the first place.

Now it's well established that the amout of CO2 in the atmosphere changes over time, and that this has an effect on the climate. There's a very complex feedback system and some its elements are better understood than others. So you've got carbon sinks, i.e. stored masses of carbon that are not free in the atmosphere in the form of CO2 - the one people mostly focus on is the rainforests, because these are the 'lungs of the planet' to coin a cliche, fixing carbon and releasing oxygen. But actually the biggest carbon sink is the ocean, both in the biomass of plant plankton and in the form of CO2 simply dissolved in the water. Warmer water is less good at holding dissolved CO2 than cooler water - cf. opening a tepid can of Coke vs. a can straight from the fridge - so as ocean temperatures rise less CO2 is absorbed and you have a positive feedback effect, accelerating warming. Then there are other gasses which also contribute to the greenhouse effects, such as CH4 (methane) which is much worse than CO2, kg for kg. A major source of this is farting cattle, as you may have heard. Another is organic material undergoing anaerobic decay, which happens when dead plants rot underwater; one source is paddy fields in E/SE Asia and another, annoyingly, is submerged vegetation in lakes created by hydroelectric projects which are generally seen as greener than burning fossil fuels because they don't release CO2. Even water vapour is implicated, because although it can help shield the Earth from solar radiation it also has greenhouse properties (I think), and one effect of warming is increased cloud cover due to faster evaporation from the oceans.

And melting ice dilutes the ocean's salinity, which has knock-on effects for its overall chemistry and dynamics, for example reducing mixing between surface and deep waters which further reduces its carbon capacity. And so on and so on...as you can appreciate that the complexity of the whole phenomenon is, well, phenomenal.

All I'll mention about how much of this is due to natural variation and how much is anthropogenic is to say that rate of change seems to be much faster than at any time we can accurately reconstruct, and has accelerated as global industrial development has accelerated over the past century or so.

Edit: as promised, a few links...


The fact of increasing global average temperatues in the recent past is not, itself, up for debate.


Correlation between atmospheric CO2 content and mean temperature, over the last 400,000 years. I don't think anyone contests the correlation but some sceptics of man-made climate change say that CO2 levels lag behind temperature, implying the opposite causality from that promoted by mainstream climate science. Note the big spike at the far right of the graph (the x-axis is reversed, so '0' is today and age of data increases to the right).


Sunspots are thought to be a good indicator of the Sun's power output, which changes over time. Observations of sunspot numbers indicates that although low solar activity may have been responsible for cool conditions between the end of the Middle Ages and the mid-19th century - the so-called 'little ice age' - the number of sunspots has stabilised since about 1950, the period of fastest warming within reconstructable history. So something other than solar variation must have an important climatic effect.


Methane is about 20 times more effective as a greenhouse gas than CO2, and is produced by all kinds of human activity.

Methane from cattle is often used an argument for eating less meat...

...but it would be rather unreasonable to ask people in south and east Asia to simply 'stop eating so much rice' because of its associated CH4 emissions.

Wikipedia has some nice extensive articles on most of these issues - look up 'carbon sink' especially and the section on the role of seawater in regulating atmospheric CO2.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The data should be regathered.

and who's going to fund that? you?

The problem is that the authorities have only weight of numbers behind them and, as we all know for the big questions, it is the minority who are right (Copernicus, Galileo), not the majority.

I don't care how unserious this point is, it is plainly wrong. the dudes you mentioned are the exception to the rule; most iconoclasts are either nuts, dead wrong, or both. which doesn't mean the majority view is always correct, just that contrarians don't have a better accuracy record. this point is important b/c climate change critics often declare - with much drama - that it's all a totalitarian scheme/groupthink/etc. and that skeptics are or ignored &/or silenced by some kind of science mafia. and not just the BNP either; my personal favorite is this U.S. Senator, who has claimed, among other things, that global warming is a leftwing plot, a hoax, and most astoundingly, Weather Channel conspiracy to boost ratings. (no, I didn't make that up, unfortunately. he's actually, unbelievably, on the Environmental & Public Works Committee)

it's all very tedious. I esp. like how you try to have it both ways. simultaneously it's a leftist guilt trip and a chance for the developed countries to screw the undeveloped world, which presumably is exactly the kind of thing leftists are against.
 
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mixed_biscuits

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and who's going to fund that? you?

Yes, of course. If regathering data helps shore up the case for spending billions down the line, then however many hundred thousands or few million it might take is worth it. Quite apart from meeting the requirement for open and informed scientific exchange.

I esp. like how you try to have it both ways. simultaneously it's a leftist guilt trip and a chance for the developed countries to screw the undeveloped world, which presumably is exactly the kind of thing leftists are against.

Well, the priority for the leftists, in this conspiracy theory, is to dismantle industrialised, capitalist societies; if they haven't yet been mantled, as in the undeveloped world, then all the better.

Environmentalists tend to be on the left, the left tends to be environmentalist - just look at the differing coverage on climate change in the Guardian compared to the Telegraph.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
and who's going to fund that? you?

I missed the 'regathering' line from m_b's post - another point is that if some of that data was taken on climatic conditions recorded live in the '80s it obviously can't be regathered, because it isn't the '80s any more!

my personal favorite is this U.S. Senator, who has claimed, among other things, that global warming is a leftwing plot, a hoax, and most astoundingly, Weather Channel conspiracy to boost ratings.

Reminds me of the plot of one of the Brosnan 007 movies in which a media mogul tries to start WWIII to sell newspapers. Fucksake, any Bond villain worth his plutonium should be trying to start WWIII for its own sake!

As you intimate, it's one of those would-be-funny-if-it-weren't-so-serious type situations.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
if some of that data was climatic conditions recorded live in the '80s it obviously can't be regathered, because it isn't the '80s any more!

O rly?

5e7a9bc76be4695c2e20db5dc9d06a82.jpg
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Well, the priority for the leftists, in this conspiracy theory, is to dismantle industrialised, capitalist societies; if they haven't yet been mantled, as in the undeveloped world, then all the better.

have you ever, ah, met any leftists? traditionally they've wanted more industrial development, not less. you're referring to a very particular strain of thought - primitivism - which is not only fringe but also often antagonistic to traditional leftism. there was a big split betwen trad leftists & Earth First types for a long time - see Dave Foreman's infamous comments on famine & AIDS or Edward Abbey (an NRA-supporter) on immigration. and, course, as as CC skeptics etc are fond of pointing out, the Nazis were interested in ecology, animal welfare & conservation (as well as, I seem to recall, industrial development), while the USSR & the PRC are both infamous for environmental depredation.

but then I realize you don't really mean "leftists", you mean bourgeois liberals who read...

the differing coverage on climate change in the Guardian

as I don't read the Guardian or the Telegraph, I can only assume they're fairly analogous to, respectively, the NYT & the Wall Street Journal (minus the latter's focus on business). so what you're really inferring is some kind of insidious & far-reaching plot between some stereotype of latte-sipping liberal groupthink, evil scientists and another stereotype of a wild-eyed radical aching to tear down industrial civilization. a plot which you, contrarian exemplaire, will fight to your dying breath to save us poor deluded fools from our mass hysteria & doomsday cults. something along those lines, anyway? it sounds plausible, I guess.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
in which a media modgul tries to start WWIII to sell newspapers

the irony being that no one would buy those newspapers anyway.

w/r/t James Inhofe, he's the absolute king of decontextualizing, misusing & abusing scientific data to "prove" his inane points. Inhofe is kinda all-around awesome; he bases his unwavering support on Israel on his literal belief in the Book of Genesis. it is *only in the United States*-style craziness. Michele Bachmann is another favorite; Tea, I suggest you look up her speech on CO2 being a "natural byproduct of nature" for a good simultaneous laugh/cry. she's another Biblical literalist, of course. at least you're on the side of the angels, Biscuit. Glenn Beck's on your team as well - always a good sign when you're on the same side of an issue as Mr. 9-12 Project. Beck and Galileo, two peas in a pod, really.
 
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