rolling back to the future garage/post-dubstep/alt-funkstep/intelli-2step etc thread

[alex]

Thank’s for the sweeping generalisation on the 1st page. SMH

Anyone my age who I know, loves old garage, know’s all the tune’s and didn’t hate it 1st time round. It was there 1st music entrapment to the ‘nuum’ (smh) apart from the one’s who were lucky enough to have an jungle tape passed to them by their older brother. If they are a bit older than me, they basically know all the fucking names to the garage records of that period or even own them. I think the ‘white boy’ thing may apply more to people outside of London, although even that is a bit thin, brackles etc.. has a ridiculous garage selection.

Who in particular would you say fit’s that trait?

Gumdrop’s your original post is completely full of shit imo, DSF is retardville ffs.

Whistla has got a room of 12” full to the brim of UKG, and I mean this guy has got ‘R&B’ vocal 12’s that have never been played, Im certain he would take the piss out of anyone’s garage collection on here.

I can’t speak for these white boy type’s who hated it 1st time round, simply because I don’t know any.

btw im not a posh white boy, more an uneducated white scumbag.

 

[alex]

<object height="136" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="http://player.soundcloud.com/player...d.com/alex-deamonds/sets/crackly-garage-vol-1"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="136" src="http://player.soundcloud.com/player...d.com/alex-deamonds/sets/crackly-garage-vol-1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href="">Crackly Garage Vol. 1</a> by <a href="http://soundcloud.com/alex-deamonds">Alex Deamonds</a></span>

 

[gumdrops]

i sometimes wonder if it's possible for a discussions of a dance genre to exist without these weird rather cynical and spiteful accusations of authenticity based around race and class to exist, as if thats consistent with anyone's actual experience of dancing to music. As if you know that they're posh, and if you could credibly make these characterisations, if you'd not seen their faces.

i'm wondering why in your first post you seemed to be saying people who are trying to recreate garage didn't like garage, are doing it for the money, ( as if!) that people will find it superior essentially cos they're white etc, that seems far fetched and horribly cynical. Also the other stuff where you do a daft job of trying to make out whistla etc are eric clapton well Last edited by mms; Yesterday at 08:50 PM.

I don’t see whats spiteful about it. I prob shouldn’t have put ‘posh boys’ in my post, as that makes it all seem a bit specious, but i was just continuing from what bun u said.

And im not saying its for the money, merely that there *are* more potential avenues for more gigs, coverage, etc, whatever if youre seen as more than just ‘street’ music (even if those avenues might just be a feature on fact or wherever). i mean, at RAs event for redbull music academy, theyve got untold and that lot on the bill (of course this might be more to do with untold and zombie or whoever having much closer ties to trad techno/house and those values than anything else but hey). Youre not exactly going to see Marcus nasty down there are you? Obv nights like night slugs have all sorts of people djing down there, but thats still quite a diff audience to what you would have got at rhumba or wherever (and the whole diplo-y stuff that i cant help thinking of when that lot were called faggatronix – i mean, really - doesnt really endear me).

You seem to be saying all that matters is if someone gets someone dancing. In which case we shouldn’t bother discussing any of this, we should all just shut up quietly, and just play youtube vids of people dancing to tunes to disprove a point.

Im not saying whistla or any of these guys are eric Clapton, and well theres nothing actually WRONG with being Clapton (i dont care so much about where someones from as what they sound like/do/say etc, if i did, i wouldnt like any number of suburban rappers), or page, or Townshend or anyone really, or closer to this issue, being squarepusher or afx and doing drill n bass even, but there is obv a similar relationship there, even if some things have obv changed. Not sure how thats so controversial, or even necessarily a negative. Tim fs points seem the most reasonable here, going purely on the sonic details that these new guys are going for, rather than any social criteria, even if that is somewhat placing this stuff in a vacuum – which if you actually live in London is hard to do (not a diss to tim f, just fyi), well unless you prefer to ignore that race or class play no part in modern music/club culture. which would be nice, but thats just not my experience.

And for the record, oneman is prob my favourite dj at the moment. And i even like some of whistla’s stuff too. I don’t know his history to comment on how deep his ukg knowledge is but im sure it IS impressive. Im sure jam city knows his shit too (not that that even matters really, its not like you need to do an academic test on each genre or nuumology before you get to make a record). But to bat it all away with ‘oh its all just dance music, it doesnt matter’ seems too easy and a bit deluded/smug.

 

[baboon2004]

The thing that's wrong with Clapton is that he's shit.

"well unless you prefer to ignore that race or class play no part in modern music/club culture. which would be nice, but thats just not my experience"
- that's very true, but I think (to make a general point, and not specific to your post) a broader discussion of this would be more valuable, as in discussing the particulars of UK funky/dubstep/whatdoucallit, we're engaging with genres that a lot of people here have lots of investment with, whether emotional or otherwise, and inevitably responses become filtered through this investment. Plus people who feel strongly enough about the music to actually make it, usually have very complex affiliations with music in general/lots of differering influences.

More broadly:
I've been to very few truly heterogeneous club nights in London - I find the city, for all its protestations of being integrated, to be very rigid in terms of social groupings (the number of white people I know who 'hate' RnB or reggae with little/no knowledge of it is a constant annoyance). But that's a phenomenon that goes way, way beyond music.

 

[Tentative Andy]

I quite like the idea of rolling back to the future. How would one go about doing such a thing?

 

[Blackdown]

i think the name "future garage" is a misnomer here. we should think about it like Jon E Cash 'sublow,' as a personalised sub section of what would become grime, tied to one man's vision. except i think the Black Ops sound was pretty defined, whereas i dont think Whistla even has a sound yet, just an intent to find one.

personally i think there are several areas of connected exciting developments, none of which are comprehensive...

- uk funky (obv) in all its glory and diversity, from skank to trad
- the night slugs crew - which having been to night slugs now seems to have far more to do with juke/bmore & grime than anyone house-influenced sound
- whistla's L2S & "future garage" crew
- labels like blunted robots, numbers etc, djs like brackles, oneman, shortstuff, erm me n dusk, producers like slackk
- 2step from people like sully n co
- zinc's crack house direction
- people inspired by berlin like Scuba or Kowton

there's probably more, but my point is they're not definable by any one tag right now, and nor would i want them to be. they're all just mutating and interacting with each other...

 

[tyranny]

I didn't class him as anything mayne! Anyway what would you call that I Need Love tune if you wanted to genrify it?

Had to do several double-takes there, I originally read your post as :

Anyway what would you call that I Need Love tune if you wanted to gentrify it?

 

[Blackdown]

I simply don't know the class background of producers so I don't make assumptions about it.

I'm sorry tim but i dont see how this tally's with the long (and welcome) campaigning you've been doing to see more media coverage of uk funky producers over 'Fact mag DJs/producers.' either you dont make assumptions and they're all one thing, or you can distinguish the difference and you have a case as to why the half you feel are being left out...

 

[Tim F]

I don't want to turn this thread into yet another referendum on "what I think", but:

Martin, as I said in the UK thread, the distinction is musical, not class-based. As far as I know, the dudes behind Funkystepz went to Eton (they probably didn't obv, but I can't say for sure...).

What distinguishes "FACT artists" from Funky artists is that almost* none of them, based on their music and their own self-description, sound like "funky" per se.

It's more, as you say yourself, funky meets b-more and other stuff (Night Slugs), funky meets dubstep (Martin Kemp, Brackles), and so on. None of these easily fit into another genre tag either - their defining feature is their liminality, their sense of being between genres (between "genre" even).

It a) amazes me that anyone would seek to deny this when the artists themselves would distinguish their music from "funky per se"; and b) surprises me that some people get so defensive about me noting this, as if there was something wrong with an artist being called "funky meets dubstep" etc. - as if any acknowledgment of an artist drawing from more than one genre was tantamount to calling them a childkiller.

* The exceptions being, of course , the actual funky artists - Cooly G, Roska, Scratcha DVA, Geeneus. Though even these get cast in a slightly different light, viz. "funkstep". That's not always, or not always totally, their choice, of course. "Funkstep" as a notion (and it would exist, albeit more tenuously perhaps, even if the name hadn't been invented) goes back to what I was saying about the class of the audience being more important than the class of the producer, although I guess rather than "the class of the audience" I should say "the preoccupations of the audience" - "funkstep" provides a frame by which people can engage with a tune like "Narst" in a way different to seeing it as a "funky" tune. For quite a few friends of mine, the convenience of the idea of "funkstep" - of the entire approach I'm talking about, is that it leads them straight to the kind of funky artists who they conceivably can like using their pre-existing critical frameworks (most come from a dubstep and minimal background), while bypassing the kind of funky they know they're unlikely to enjoy.

What irritates me I guess is the (almost contradictory) action by which the public discussion of funky tends to gloss over artists who don't have this "funky meets x other thing" angle AND/OR when it does talk about funky restricts itself to those artists on whose work such an angle can be imposed. And it wouldn't irritate me if funky-as-funky had its own sustainable critical culture.

It's the dominance of that mode of thinking - the sense that funky can be validated ONLY by reference to its permeation with other genres - not the music, not the artist, and certainly not the artist's class, that bothers me.

It's a mode of thinking that I think goes back to the old Hyperdub days. I loved Hyperdub as a website back in 2000, but it occurred to me subsequently that the level of excitement over, say, No-U-Turn starting a sub-label Turn-U-On for garage (which ended up going nowhere, funnily enough, and a bit sadly) was a lot about the sense that garage was belatedly being awarded a gold star by drum & bass - here was tangible and irrefutable evidence that the "continuum" existed! The heroes of 2 years ago formally anointing the heroes of today! I think something about seeing that process made explicit can be quite exciting, and seductive too, the way it turns theoretical ideas about the impure dissemination of sonic ideas into something tangible (plus the switch from "No U Turn" to "Turn U On" is so fucking neat, it really was brilliant on a conceptual level).

Nothing wrong with any of that - except insofar as it's now become THE critical framework for all of this stuff such that liminal artists become the centre point and artists who don't appear to transcend genre are overlooked, and a good deal of the critical treatment of funky is confined to references to how its influence has invigorated the post-dubstep scene.

But none of that really has a great deal to do with class - except to the extent that possibly middle-class audiences by and large like stories of eclectic iconoclastic individuals unconstrained by genre convention, because they remind them of themselves, or what they'd like to be, etc.

 

[mrfaucet]

- the night slugs crew - which having been to night slugs now seems to have far more to do with juke/bmore & grime than anyone house-influenced sound

Was this Friday night at Egg? I think there was a lot less UK funky that night than there normally is and it was worse for it.

Would also add that Tim's post seems perfectly reasonable to me. It's not about 'real' Uk funky Vs. 'wot do u call it' - covering one doesn't have to entail the ignoring of the other, yet the 'wot do u call it' side has probably received more coverage. As has been said, that's not necessarily entirely the fault of the journalists because the 'wot do u call it' are a lot more forthcoming with mixes, interviews, etc. and I still want to see that side covered as I like a lot of the music that comes out of it, but I'm probably more interested in the stuff that Luka is uncovering from Myspace as I would be completely ignorant of it if he wasn't - the same goes for Tim's blog posts and Tentative Andy's post - whereas I think I'd be more likely to find out about the 'wot do u call it' producers as they are more visible since they are releasing vinyl and mixes fairly regularly.

 

[baboon2004]

It a) amazes me that anyone would seek to deny this when the artists themselves would distinguish their music from "funky per se"; and b) surprises me that some people get so defensive about me noting this, as if there was something wrong with an artist being called "funky meets dubstep" etc. - as if any acknowledgment of an artist drawing from more than one genre was tantamount to calling them a childkiller.

People who mix genres do kill more children. It's scientific fact.

 

[baboon2004]

The heroes of 2 years ago formally anointing the heroes of today!

But I would've thought that the popular imagination (especially, perhaps the younger popular imagination, kids who are bored of older people harping on about how sepcial thigns were back then) is equally attracted to those who deny any link with the past, that what they're doing is unique and hasn't been done before.Reverence for history and irreverence for history both provide a seductive angle.

 

[Tim F]

But I would've thought that the popular imagination (especially, perhaps the younger popular imagination, kids who are bored of older people harping on about how sepcial thigns were back then) is equally attracted to those who deny any link with the past, that what they're doing is unique and hasn't been done before.Reverence for history and irreverence for history both provide a seductive angle.

Yes, absolutely, and I think this is definitely a point worth emphasising given the usual desire of younger listeners to claim that "now is the best time to be alive" - except that I'm not sure that, post-jungle, this has ever been the case with this cluster of genres (with the possible exception of grime?). It's difficult to think of sub-styles of music more openly and unashamedly enthusiastic about asserting their relationship to prior genres than 2-step and uk funky.

I sort of feel like uk funky possibly is my favourite music ever (or tied with 2-step at any rate) - but as much because of its sense of commonality with what has gone before as with its point of departure.

Possibly one stumbling block w/r/t uk funky gaining critical purchase is that enthusiasm for it doesn't really fit any over-generalising stance on music per se (i.e. a privileging of futurism, populism, elitism, pro-soulfulness, musicality, tuffness etc. etc. On any of these criteria, funky tends to come up short somehow).

But I should stop talking about uk funky on the future garage/intellistep thread!

 

[luka]

i dont think we should be slandering slackk...i think his intention is to make straight funkyfunky for what its worth....

 

[Blackdown]

I don't want to turn this thread into yet another referendum on "what I think", but:

Martin, as I said in the UK thread, the distinction is musical, not class-based. As far as I know, the dudes behind Funkystepz went to Eton (they probably didn't obv, but I can't say for sure...).

What distinguishes "FACT artists" from Funky artists is that almost* none of them, based on their music and their own self-description, sound like "funky" per se.

It's more, as you say yourself, funky meets b-more and other stuff (Night Slugs), funky meets dubstep (Martin Kemp, Brackles), and so on. None of these easily fit into another genre tag either - their defining feature is their liminality, their sense of being between genres (between "genre" even).

i still don't accept this 'musical only judgments' claim. OK imagine scenario where...

a) a uk funky producer uses a dubbed out sound in his track. you'd say 'oh, look at the diversity and breadth of the uk funky sound.' [genre expans from within]

Then imagine b) when someone like (say) martin kemp or brackles uses the same dubbed out sound. you'd say it's 'funky meets dubstep (Martin Kemp, Brackles)' [two genres meet]

Given this is the same sound being used, the only way you can and would draw these boundaries is on cultural means. now i'm not against that, in fact i think it's crucial for how we understand the forces that drive scenes, but i think you cant pretend you're not using them.

 

[Ory]

a lot of this stuff is just so dull. especially the post-burial/berlin type sound. gray and miserable. then there's the whistla end of it which is nicer, but still feels cluttered and a bit aimless.

what's the point, really? i'll take chris mack/jeremy sylvester/dem2 over this any day..

 

[Blackdown]

what's the point, really? i'll take chris mack/jeremy sylvester/dem2 over this any day..

because, in 2010 i want DJ, make and dance to something that isnt "wowowowRAHRAHRAHGRRRRR!" aka brostepwobble.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Yeah, listened to that new Fabric Elevator music cd last night and its just too polite overall. There's nothing that really stays in the memory afterwards. Whereas in Funky there's loads of tunes that lodge in my head and refuse to budge, and I'm not just talking about the really poppy stuff either. Surely that alone stands for something right?

I liked quite a few of the future garagey tracks when this stuff was first coming through (and still enjoy the odd thing I hear now and then) but I can't think of a type of music I've tired of so quickly. But Funky just continues to grow on me the more I hear it.

 

[Blackdown]

i see it an 'and' rather than 'or' thing with these two styles. mixing them together makes for an interesting set.

 

[paolo]

I just got the new TRG EP

He's from Bucharest and he makes UK Funky/garage/house

How 2010 is that?