Is anyone in Grime/NUKG/Garage actually making any money?
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hint
party record with a siren
2stepfan said:
correct - sample clearance is down to the artist, label and publisher. but pressing plants can still get in trouble for pressing uncleared material because it should all be "above board" and registered with MCPS before pressing commences. so in order for material with uncleared samples to be pressed up, everybody in the chain is technically liable - the artist should point out samples to the label, who should clear them and then register the publishing info, which should then be submitted to and checked by the pressing plant... if that makes sense... but, of course, when it comes to uncleared samples it's all about the liklihood of being caught so all sorts gets put out there.
the issues with HMV is that (as I understand it) the punishment for selling bootlegs is a flat fine. they can easily afford this and, I assume, sell enough of the illegal material to still make money even after paying the fine, so they carry on regardless. but let's be clear that by bootleg I mean unofficial mo'wax pressings and the like, not material with uncleared samples - the latter has no effect on the retailers whatsoever.
blissblogger
Well-known member
memetastic
blimey, paul, that's an incredible breakdown, you sound like you know your p&D & retail shit inside out
so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off? yet must also have to invest in his gear?
it's a vicious circle perhaps -- selling less, so you have to up the mark-up to get a good return on small-runs of vinyl, leading to people be more picky about what they buy... you could call it the Dead C syndrome
when i go through stuff in black market or uptown, i'm inclined to give a release i'm not 100 sure about, the NON-benefit of the doubt whereas jungle days i would do the opposite (resulting in a lot of tunes i subsequently was unable to work out why exactly i bought them)
presumably a lot of the vinyl is only bought by djs and aspiring MCs
the fact that the music even more than jungle really comes alive and reaches fruition in the mix, on air, with guys shouting over it, must incline people to stick with their pirate tapes, or wait for the DVDs
i was talking to jammer the other day (no i was, honestly, in a williamsburg cafe where he looked kinda uncomfortable) and he said there was only about 4 grime pirates -- and way more other ones. the other ones he said, had better broadcast radiuses, better rigs, cos they were more established and had older experienced people running them -- anybody know if this is true? he's probably got an East-centric viewpoint though
it is a smaller scene clearly, than it would appear from the amount of noise it generates
blimey, paul, that's an incredible breakdown, you sound like you know your p&D & retail shit inside out
so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off? yet must also have to invest in his gear?
it's a vicious circle perhaps -- selling less, so you have to up the mark-up to get a good return on small-runs of vinyl, leading to people be more picky about what they buy... you could call it the Dead C syndrome
when i go through stuff in black market or uptown, i'm inclined to give a release i'm not 100 sure about, the NON-benefit of the doubt whereas jungle days i would do the opposite (resulting in a lot of tunes i subsequently was unable to work out why exactly i bought them)
presumably a lot of the vinyl is only bought by djs and aspiring MCs
the fact that the music even more than jungle really comes alive and reaches fruition in the mix, on air, with guys shouting over it, must incline people to stick with their pirate tapes, or wait for the DVDs
i was talking to jammer the other day (no i was, honestly, in a williamsburg cafe where he looked kinda uncomfortable) and he said there was only about 4 grime pirates -- and way more other ones. the other ones he said, had better broadcast radiuses, better rigs, cos they were more established and had older experienced people running them -- anybody know if this is true? he's probably got an East-centric viewpoint though
it is a smaller scene clearly, than it would appear from the amount of noise it generates
blissblogger
Well-known member
boho cafes
i can't remember the name, it was near N 6th and Whythe, kind of a teashop vibe, a little garden with a fountain in the back. Quite near Academy Records.
He and the MCs asked for coca colas, spurning the array of machiatos, lattes and mochas on offer. i guess it's not the sort of place they'd probably go to in england.
i can't remember the name, it was near N 6th and Whythe, kind of a teashop vibe, a little garden with a fountain in the back. Quite near Academy Records.
He and the MCs asked for coca colas, spurning the array of machiatos, lattes and mochas on offer. i guess it's not the sort of place they'd probably go to in england.
hint
party record with a siren
if you're pressing up 1,000 and shops are selling at £7.99 you only really need to sell about 300 to break even on production costs - and that's if you're giving a cut to a distributor and getting a sleeve and printed labels too.
so a one-man operation (producer pressing his own 12"s and self-distributing) putting out white labels could do quite well out of 700-800 sales... enough to make it worthwhile and fund the next release, at least.
the higher retail price helps you pull in more cash for relatively low sales (obviously)... but does it mean fewer sales due to overpricing, though?
so a one-man operation (producer pressing his own 12"s and self-distributing) putting out white labels could do quite well out of 700-800 sales... enough to make it worthwhile and fund the next release, at least.
the higher retail price helps you pull in more cash for relatively low sales (obviously)... but does it mean fewer sales due to overpricing, though?
hint said:
there is a probably a big hike between the sales price and the dealer price and alot of guessing/dealing/bluffing going on.
if the w/labels were getting sold to hmv which they ain't, there would probably be a demand from the shop to cut the dp so the sales price is cheaper, ie relelntless sold forward riddim at a more reasonable price in hmv singalong doesn't get remotley near it unfortunatley
fact is when the indie garage stores are the only people selling the records they can afford to have 'import price' eps, overheads for stores in soho etc are probably massive as well i imagine.
It's another issue that will need to be met when shops start to ask for the records etc unless of course some ridiculous standard is set by the very expensive prices of grime records which will become a hinderance.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
I used to when I was doing music multimedia licensing and distribution deals in the mid-nineties... I keep cmy hand in a bit cos I'm involved in Dust. Martin's really switched on about it now. Suddi from Together and Tom C from Headspace over at UKD really know their shit.blissblogger said:
Key distribution clause to watch out for: shrinkage / wastage. They'll write in the contract that they can lose up to 15% of volume to "wastage" without paying you for it. So 15% of your stuff can be broken, nicked out the warehouse, or just sold and not paid for, and there's nothing you can do about it. See also P&D deals with inflated production costs.
so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off?
Potentially. But for how long? The point made up-thread about the value of shows is well-made: they're lucrative. But there aren't that many shows.
yet must also have to invest in his gear?
That's cheap. Studios to finish things off are pretty cheap too. I mean, DIzzee finished Boy off round the corner from me in Sheffield. Cheap as chips for a pro sound.
it's a vicious circle perhaps -- selling less, so you have to up the mark-up to get a good return on small-runs of vinyl, leading to people be more picky about what they buy... you could call it the Dead C syndrome
That's why I keep banging on about the economics of dance music in general and garage in particular having changed in scale utterly since 1999. Retail outlets, media outlets, venues, radio, above all scale of audience, none of it is what it was then, as far as I can tell.
the fact that the music even more than jungle really comes alive and reaches fruition in the mix, on air, with guys shouting over it, must incline people to stick with their pirate tapes, or wait for the DVDs
Yes. And DVDs are an interesting product extension in Grime, borrowed from Happy Hardcore I think! It's an extension of the desktop revolution. If your computer can do music, it can probably do DVDs.
2stepfan said:
if you have a knowledgeble accountant you can probaby claim back spending on gear in income tax as well.
wastage and also returns are real fuckery.
fuck knows what kinda deal roll deep have sprung for their album but i reckon they will steadily roll out with the underground releases and may pull the whole thing up, maybe bring down the price .
lot of cash to be made from licencing and publishing, maybe these guys are into this, i saw get meby bruiser on a tv advertised cd in my local tesco's the otherday.
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hint
party record with a siren
mms said:
Yeah - I suppose so... I guess it's clear if you look at the difference in price between whites on juno and the same whites in uptown... but it's always been the case that some shops add 40%, some 30%
mms said:
on a slight side note - I noticed singalong on zzonked's promo list and that doesn't come cheap... who's behind the label?
perhaps once it expands beyond london (in retail terms) we'll see more variation in price - r'n'b is even more expensive in uptown than grime...!
"london tax"hint said:perhaps once it expands beyond london (in retail terms) we'll see more variation in price - r'n'b is even more expensive in uptown than grime...!
well, everything at import prices eh?
a shop that sells us hip hop and r and b imports will probably not think about costing grime at the same price. its a bit of a bluff i think.
as for singlong on szzonked's mailing list, did you check what label it was on, maybe its been signed by a major?
either that or some fresh faced at zzonked has saif they'll do the press for free or cheap in good faith.
hint
party record with a siren
mms said:
it's what led me to think that there's just a (relatively high) flat percentage being slapped on. domestic 12"s come out at £7, imports at £9... rather than £5 and £7 in less specialist stores with similar stock.
mms said:
still in the hood or whatever the label's called... got artwork as well on the copies in independance and blackmarket, so there's a definite push going on. quite right too.
might be "doing a casual" - that sunship / warrior queen 12" has only just been properly released, hasn't it? did the rounds in the specialist shops and on promo quite a while ago.
hint said:
yeah i didn't realise this was the case till i got some record shop mailouts on monday.
btw skreamz has done a remix that is just amazing on no uncertain terms.
i'm not sure whether it will ever get a public press tho
too much inertia there maybe.
my feeling is gype is being pumped several google pages of shop listings
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hint
party record with a siren
yeah - heard the screamz mix... you know I always check jay da flex
seems to be a little acapella-refix industry growing around his show... stuff like ce'cile, warrior queen, bugz, sovereign... all getting reworked by a few different people. might try and fish for a few plays from him myself, cos I'm always sticking acapellas on tracks I intend to send to MCs (eventually).
seems to be a little acapella-refix industry growing around his show... stuff like ce'cile, warrior queen, bugz, sovereign... all getting reworked by a few different people. might try and fish for a few plays from him myself, cos I'm always sticking acapellas on tracks I intend to send to MCs (eventually).
3underscore
Well-known member
I agree pretty much with Paul's calculations, though the Poland route isn't without its difficulties. I actually think the price for Poland may be a bit low compared to the prices I used to get in the Czech Republic.
It sounds (off the vinyl) likely that a lot of them use Eastern Europe. They will press off a four-track tape recording if you want them to, and it is often the only way to make a small scale release viable. I don't know how it is now, but Eastern Europe always used to involve quite a fair amount of hassle either getting someone to deal with your vinyl (at about £100 fee, something I doub would be entertained) or a shit-load of paperwork at the airport (my prefered option!).
When I priced up 1000 twelves in London a few years back, you were talking about £1500 with just white labels. My guess is that is the way a lot of this goes - it is so much less hassle. I wouldn't be surprised if the better presented labels (Terror Rhythm, Big Apple) were going east europe - the release may actually cost them less, irrespective of the label design, coloured vinyl or whatever.
All the same, I found that releasing 12" vinyl is a very quick way to spend a student loan. 40% mark up in shops sounds like someone getting a good deal from a shop from my experience - outwith Uptown, I reckon they will get hit worse.
It sounds (off the vinyl) likely that a lot of them use Eastern Europe. They will press off a four-track tape recording if you want them to, and it is often the only way to make a small scale release viable. I don't know how it is now, but Eastern Europe always used to involve quite a fair amount of hassle either getting someone to deal with your vinyl (at about £100 fee, something I doub would be entertained) or a shit-load of paperwork at the airport (my prefered option!).
When I priced up 1000 twelves in London a few years back, you were talking about £1500 with just white labels. My guess is that is the way a lot of this goes - it is so much less hassle. I wouldn't be surprised if the better presented labels (Terror Rhythm, Big Apple) were going east europe - the release may actually cost them less, irrespective of the label design, coloured vinyl or whatever.
All the same, I found that releasing 12" vinyl is a very quick way to spend a student loan. 40% mark up in shops sounds like someone getting a good deal from a shop from my experience - outwith Uptown, I reckon they will get hit worse.
hint said:
that's it, almost every shop sells stuff with uncleared samples but HMV always seems to stock dodgy re-pressings and the like which other big shops don't - I remember Brian of MVE being ultra careful about not selling bootlegs, even in a secondhand shop - guess those flat rate fines would have hit him hard
S
simon silverdollar
Guest
blissblogger said:
yeah that's true- there's still loads of 4/4 and old skool garage on the pirates. there's obviously still a big audience for it. the only pirates i can pick up who predominantly play grime are raw uk and On top. i guess the biggest pirate, rinse, plays a lot of grime, but it has a fair number of ukg + drum n bass + dubstep shows as well.
having said all this, tho, i live in south west, and can't pick up some of the pirates that people say play a lot of grime, like crews control and heat.
but really, there's a lot of grime being played out there, and there's a huge number of crews and DJs with regular slots, so it's not like there's this feeling of 'aww, only 4 stations?' for me, at least.
probably the most common stuff you hear on pirate radio, though, is dancehall, hip hop and r n b.
a station near me plays really odd portugese folk music.
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Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
UKD Knowledge section on pressing
http://www.uk-dance.org/knowledge/music_making/000066.html
couple of suggestions of pressing plants in Europe.
http://www.uk-dance.org/knowledge/music_making/000066.html
couple of suggestions of pressing plants in Europe.