"Owning"

[nomadthethird]

but hey, don't listen to me. i'm an uneducated stupid moron prick for mentioning any of this.

i guess if there were any justice in the world "nasty pieces of work" like me would be banned from the forum, banned from LIFE.

Don't rock the boat! Just go with the flow, man. All that static is clouding our universalist visions.

(Just think, it could be even more fun- you could be calling out both white AND male privilege on a net forum. Almost as much fun as it is trying to do it IRL. j/k...)

 

[gyto]

...

 

[massrock]

i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.

I think you're right to point it out but from what I gather I wouldn't say that the intent of that strip was either tongue in cheek or ironic (or even parodic) exactly but something else. Starkly illustrative? It's not satire exactly, it's more deadpan.

I understand your point, but depicting these things as if they're in the past, or somehow archaic, can be an issue in and of itself-- the Mexican government got in trouble a few years ago for printing a Sambo postage stamp.

Yeah but again in the case of that comic it is depicting comics in the past.

 

[mistersloane]

honest question: how do you think "portraying it as it was" functions? do you think it sparks debate? do you think it reminds kids of a past that they don't remember?

pretty much, yeah. I don't think horrifically racist pasts should be forgotten by any of us. I certainly won't forget how me or my sisters, or my father, were treated.

and the way i encountered this Chinky story was as a stand alone, self contained story within the giant sized ABC special, with no thematic relations to the stories which appear before or after it.

that's really interesting that they took it out of its original context, but it says more about the publishing house than the context in which it originally was, and I think that's certainly a line to pursue, and especially with the publishing house.

given the (lack of) context, what do you think the primary target audience of these books, probably something like age 9 - 18, would get from the story?

probably something horribly racist.

it is never black and white (no puns intended), but in my estimation, this is slipping into the area of perpetuating harmful stereotypes much more than any kind of shedding light on race relations.

out of its original context yeah, in its original intention I don't doubt how it was made or intended. I've read interviews with Moore where he's railed against how much he hates his work being manipulated, and I'm sure he'd agree.

There's a good conversation there about how stuff gets manipulated, but I gotta go cook pork and black beans, more later.

 

[mistersloane]

The problem with representations of violence (sexual and racial) in media is not that people without deep-seated race-based hatred lurking inside will see them and suddenly convert to racists; but nor will these images convert any racists from their views. The sole purpose they end up serving is to give white people who don't actively hate a reason to feel superior, ignoring the ways we are all complicit institutionalized oppression,while giving racists/misogynists a hate hard-on, basically. There's no other reason to depict this kind of thing, in his opinion.

I'm not sure I agree totally with this, but it's worth considering.

Yeah I know what he's saying, personally I find it more shocking - Bamboozled is a great example - when it's used in a modern day commentary of past events, rather than watching, say, Birth of a Nation. I find the use of shock quite useful sometimes, for as long as it lasts, same as with violence. We all know it's horrid, but when it's depicted pornographically it makes you think about how horrible violence is. It's not the same if you just talk/read about it.

 

[scottdisco]

i note MIA's latest video has been attracting a lot of comment, some of it certainly negative, 'it's all too OTT' etc.

i gather it's shocking in the sorts of ways Sloane describes in the previous post.

i say good for MIA.

 

[nomadthethird]

Yeah but again in the case of that comic it is depicting comics in the past.

To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?

There are some statements that I think can only be made effectively by certain groups. I really think that cartoon may have worked IFF it were 1) made by an Asian person, and 2) were in a context where its message was unmistakeably clear.

A good example is Kara Walker. Am I sure what's she's doing isn't racist? No, I'm not. I think it is racist, in fact, very much so, and on purpose. Am I sure it has any positive effect except as a sort of exorcism for her? Nope. Is it successful art? Yeah, I think it is. But only because it's seems unmistakable to me what she's doing, from context, and given her personal perspective. There are some things white people will just never get away with saying or doing, and I think they should just respect that.

There are some people who would disagree, and they could make a strong case, though...

 

[massrock]

To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?

As sloane says it's clearly partly about shock. It's also in a comic that refers to the history of comic books. But besides that does art have to 'teach' something necessarily?

I haven't read this though so I'm not best placed to answer. droid and reeltoreel explained a bit earlier. Sounds intriguing, no?

Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don't have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

Its an addendum to the Promethea books (5 volumes), and is part of a conceit where Moore portrays his characters in the manner in which they would have been portrayed at the time - like using Black and white footage for old shots in a new documentary. In an issue of Tomorrows stories (IIRC) the rationalisation for the racist portrayal is revealed - Margie's childishness (and the childishness of the medium). When she (literally) outgrows the panels the stereotypical portayal of 'Chinky' vanishes and he becomes a 'real' character. It is a comment on the growth of the medium, on the portrayal of race in comics, on the 'innocence' of earlier eras) all of which have parallels to the main narrative which is extremely symbolic and full of references.

 

[mistersloane]

Yeah I know what he's saying, personally I find it more shocking - Bamboozled is a great example - when it's used in a modern day commentary of past events, rather than watching, say, Birth of a Nation. I find the use of shock quite useful sometimes, for as long as it lasts, same as with violence. We all know it's horrid, but when it's depicted pornographically it makes you think about how horrible violence is. It's not the same if you just talk/read about it.

I'm gonna argue with myself here cos I remember seeing this, De Voortrekkers :

http://www.barbican.org.uk/film/event-detail.asp?ID=8214

and it was by faaaaaar the most racist thing I've ever seen, to the point of just sitting there laughing in disbelief, so I may have just disproved my own point.

I also don't think that 'only' people of the same ethnicity etc can do work about their own depictions, it's essentialist and reductive surely, and would leave me, as a quadroon, unable to do work about anything other than donkeys.

 

[optimum]

This comic deals quite well with the 'Chinese stereotype', with it's character 'Chin-Kee', a lot better than the thing Zhao posted up thread.

http://www.firstsecondbooks.com/abc.html

 

[nomadthethird]

I'm gonna argue with myself here cos I remember seeing this, De Voortrekkers :

http://www.barbican.org.uk/film/event-detail.asp?ID=8214

and it was by faaaaaar the most racist thing I've ever seen, to the point of just sitting there laughing in disbelief, so I may have just disproved my own point.

I also don't think that 'only' people of the same ethnicity etc can do work about their own depictions, it's essentialist and reductive surely, and would leave me, as a quadroon, unable to do work about anything other than donkeys.

Ha, well... it's not that they're the only ones who can do it, it's that, if you're what most people would see as white and you're going to talk about the oppression of others using overtly racist memes, be prepared for what will surely follow...

But besides that does art have to 'teach' something necessarily?

And I would say no to this, but really, that piece seemed like it was trying to teach something... I just can't figure out what exactly, apart from the bleedingly obvious...

 

[droid]

but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

someone mistook you for Asian mean

But but... I married a woman who was 1/24 Mexican! Therefore I can't be racist

Umm... that's not what I was addressing. What I was addressing was his jump to the fact that he was in fact distantly Asian, which was supposed to prove that he couldn't possibly be wrong about the racist implications of a cartoon. That's the same thing. Sometimes the lobbyists claim that their great, great, great grandfather was Mexican instead. Or that their best friend is black. Or queer. Or whatnot.

I said wife because it's funnier that way.

And I think anyone who tries to defend those cartoons is racist. I don't care how many times someone mistook them for Asian.

I did not 'jump' to the fact. Zhao, repeatedly referred to me as 'white dude', 'caucasian person', clearly suggesting that my opinion was not valid because of my 'race', when in fact he didnt have a clue about my genetics.

I was bullied for ten years because I have Asian blood. Your and Zhao's statements above are quite offensive.

Strange how both of you have resorted to racist arguments as soon as I mentioned I was part Asian. How mixed do you have to be before your experience of racism is valid? 16%? 33%? 45%? 100%?

:slanted:

 

[droid]

Ok, Im going to respond to this before it goes any further.

so it is I who has turned into a "nasty piece of work"... says the man spraying profanities and spittle all over the room...

...what you have done is call me a string of names such as "cretin", "uneducated", "prick", infer that i am stupid ("are you still trying to understand From Hell?") ---- all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.

First of all, I described the person who wrote those notes as a cretin. If Id known it was you I mightve been more diplomatic.

I didnt call you uneducated. I said you should 'educate yourself', specifically in relation to Moore and the work in question.

I did call you a prick and a twat. Both times in response to cheap racial comments that had no relevance. 'White dude, 'caucasian person'? seriously? If ever I saw an attempt to 'stifle debate' thats it. You picked a terrible example, were called out on it, and then said that I couldnt be right because Im 'white'

I made the comment about From Hell because you had trouble with understanding a part of it. This IMO is directly relevant to your interpretation of this piece.

to your favorite comic writer? by questioning the integrity of his publishing house? by not understanding the irony, and appreciating the finesse of this anti-racist story which only "seems" racist to the uneducated, ignorant, and dense?

He's not my favourite comics writer.

what if i am someone who did not know who Alan Moore is before now, who found this story racist and perpetuating racist stereotypes?

Youd be exactly like someone who saw this scene from mad men and concluded that mad men was therefore racist - wrong:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

You havent even read Promethea have you (You never answered that question)? You downloaded that anthology and immediately decided to cast judgement. Did you even notice the caveat on the contents page?

So no, I dont feel i owe you an apology (as your original post requested). You've made spurious accusations of racism towards me for the third or fourth time, and when I responded to your cheap attempts to bring my genetics into the issue you then proceeded to tell me that I wasnt Asian enough to have experienced racism. Thats all way more offensive than a 'fuck you' IMO.

I do regret the profanities though, as its given you another excuse to spin your ego-driven victim fantasy where you crusade against white racist hetro hegemony on Dissensus, so Im more than happy to apologise to the rest of the board for my most unparlimentary language.

EDIT And might I add - you put 'only a moron would think that was racist' in quotes - I never said that. You also brought up the Black Athena thing AGAIN, and completely misrepresented me, accusing me of racism AGAIN.

Thats what bothers me most about all this TBH. Ive known you for years, and we've disagreed about plenty of stuff before, but now your being genuinely deceitful and using cheap and nasty methods to try and win arguments and smear me as a racist.

Good luck Zhao. Youre on my ignore list. i suggest you reciprocate.

 

[Dunninger]

To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?

I don't think so. Moore's target audience are mostly adults (not kids) with enough knowledge about comics that they can recognize the reference to Winsor McCay. But he is usually just celebrated as one of the great pioneers of comics, and as far as I know there is not much critical discussion of racist elements in his work, so I'm sure there's enough people who are not aware of that.

 

[grizzleb]

There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

 

[mistersloane]

There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun. On another level, if you feel you shouldn't, don't.

I just think watching or reading stuff about things makes me think, regardless of who made it or their intention. It's not real, great! I hate fucking reality. It's horrible.

 

[grizzleb]

On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun. On another level, if you feel you shouldn't, don't.

I just think watching or reading stuff about things makes me think, regardless of who made it or their intention. It's not real, great! I hate fucking reality. It's horrible.

Yeah totally. That's pretty much my basic view. Yeah reality is well wank.

 

[nomadthethird]

I did not 'jump' to the fact. Zhao, repeatedly referred to me as 'white dude', 'caucasian person', clearly suggesting that my opinion was not valid because of my 'race', when in fact he didnt have a clue about my genetics.

I was bullied for ten years because I have Asian blood. Your and Zhao's statements above are quite offensive.

Strange how both of you have resorted to racist arguments as soon as I mentioned I was part Asian. How mixed do you have to be before your experience of racism is valid? 16%? 33%? 45%? 100%?

:slanted:

Is this a joke?

Are you people serious?

Zhao did no such thing, I read through the entire thread as it was happening.

I'm sorry people picked on you for being Asian-- people picked on me and called me a goomba, a WOP, a guido, and kike!

Whoopdie-do, join the club, none of this has any bearing on what was being discussed. My being picked on doesn't make me less "white privileged", either.

 

[nomadthethird]

Oh good lord, Mad Men?

Mad Men?

That show is terrible... talk about an example of a show that relies on "irony" to weasle out of being pinned down for sexism...

 

[woops]

Yeah reality is well wank.

Agree